Rosebud Middle PUP

Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Banana Boat » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:13 pm

Hey All,

At the end of the day....which coil is active in split mode on the middle pup after the "hum cancel" flip and "in-phase" rewire?

Thx,
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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:45 pm

Same as the others, coil on the neck side should be active. With a stock wiring it is actually the south pole, but with the Brawer wiring you are referring to it is the north pole that is active.

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Jon S. » Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:55 am

FWIW, on my Tigerish axe, I installed a 3-way minitoggle: down is north coil; middle is both coils; up is south coil. I did this primarily because, as you can see, my PUP ring is not flush up against the bridge as was Jerry's. I thought therefore I might like the south coil's tones more. As it turns out, neither my bandmates or I do. The north coil still sounds best. (I'm actually considering having a luthier do a bit of routing and move the ring over though, to date, the "leave well enough alone" part of me is winning).

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:13 am

Jon, which the north coil and which is the south coil?

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Jon S. » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:27 am

I hope I didn't again mix up which is which. :oops:

What I mean to say is, through the middle PUP, the coil closest to the neck definitely sounds better - more "Jerryish," if I may - than the one closest to the bridge. And it's not only my own opinion - everyone who's heard the guitar agrees. This surprised me, I was expecting the reverse.
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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Banana Boat » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:17 pm

waldo041 wrote:Same as the others, coil on the neck side should be active. With a stock wiring it is actually the south pole, but with the Brawer wiring you are referring to it is the north pole that is active.

~waldo


Ok cool....that's what I thought and that's how I have it...whew... I just knew that "neckside" trumped everything else.

Thanks!!!
Kinda like "musical pickups" here... :lol:


Jon S. wrote:FWIW, on my Tigerish axe, I installed a 3-way minitoggle: down is north coil; middle is both coils; up is south coil. I did this primarily because, as you can see, my PUP ring is not flush up against the bridge as was Jerry's. I thought therefore I might like the south coil's tones more. As it turns out, neither my bandmates or I do. The north coil still sounds best. (I'm actually considering having a luthier do a bit of routing and move the ring over though, to date, the "leave well enough alone" part of me is winning).


Nice little acid test there Jon... Cool

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Bobbybriand » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:39 pm

With the Guitar standing up north is north. I like coil toggle option. I'd really use that more in my neck postion. Sweet guitar man. Who makes all these beauties?
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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby hippieguy1954 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:32 am

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:29 am

Bobbybriand wrote:With the Guitar standing up north is north. I like coil toggle option. I'd really use that more in my neck postion. Sweet guitar man. Who makes all these beauties?


Actually, with the guitar standing up north is south. That is, the north coil is closest to the bridge and the south coil is the active single as already stated.

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TRG » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:56 am

Jon S. wrote:FWIW, on my Tigerish axe, I installed a 3-way minitoggle: down is north coil; middle is both coils; up is south coil. I did this primarily because, as you can see, my PUP ring is not flush up against the bridge as was Jerry's. I thought therefore I might like the south coil's tones more. As it turns out, neither my bandmates or I do. The north coil still sounds best. (I'm actually considering having a luthier do a bit of routing and move the ring over though, to date, the "leave well enough alone" part of me is winning).

Image


I've often wondered what the south coil (closest to bridge) on my midle pup would sound like. Can I ask what you didn't like about the sound of the south coil...or possible put up some sound clips of both...? :-)

Also, what is the distance from the nut to the middle of the middle pickup on your axe?
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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:46 am

Timely, I've been thinking about this as I mount my Super 2 in my wolf/SG- the exact location of the split coil/ north vs. south/ 22 or 24 frets. Why "just exactly right" is important.

To my limited way of looking at it there are two things going on. First is the various nodes of the oscillating string- high points vs. low points, active vs. inactive spots. These all change location as you fret the string- they move for each fret. So I think this has less to do with it.

The other is how far the active coil is from the bridge. I think that's a much more important factor than how far it is from the nut (22 vs. 24 frets) for two reasons. As above, the distance to the nut is only important for an open string, and distance to the fret is constantly changing as you fret strings. But the distance from the coil to the bridge stays constant- and that distance is much closer than for 95% of where we're normally playing (except for the top few frets). Think of how the tone changes when you pick right at the bridge vs. a few inches away, vs. at the neck. The pickup "hears" that change. So there's a lot less variability in what the coil is seeing related to the bridge (3-4"?) vs, what the coil is seeing from the rest of length of the string (24-30"?).

Rebuttal dissertation from Marty or Waldo or? :lol:
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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby waldo041 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:54 am

I would put them equal, they both have a function.

The fundamental standing wave(the first in the pic below) does play a part in the pickups placement and is chosen to amplify the most of the waves amplitude in the open position of the strings. ie.. unfretted. There is some math involved but that is the gist of it. ever notice that the same type and value pickup in the neck position can be much louder then in the bridge?

Edit: Also, just to note as you stated with the bridge being the constant, in the standing wave it is the constant as well. When the nut node becomes a fretted node the standing wave is shortened but that bridge side or pickup side node stays constant no matter what fret is played.

Image

Equal to the standing wave is the relationship of the pickup to the bridge, where an EQ'ing of the output can be achieved. In the old days (before my time) they called the neck the "low" pickup and the bridge the "high" pickup. This is because the farther away from the bridge a pickup gets the lower it's frequency response becomes, the high end begins to drop off. The closer a pickup gets to the bridge the higher it's frequency response becomes, the low end begins to drop off. Now factor in the amplitude of the standing wave and you get a pickup that gets louder and muddier the more you move it toward the neck and a pickup that gets quieter and thinner the more you move it toward the bridge. so ultimately what you get is a neck pickup that is set lower from the strings to drop the gain, and a bridge pickup set closer to the strings to get more gain.

at least that is the way I look at it, ymmv.
:thewave:

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby Bobbybriand » Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:34 pm

Cool explanation. What would be even simpler for the masses is measure in inches or metric to see the approx distance between bridge saddles and the north coil of middle bucker. We all can tell when tapped into the sweet spot and are using the most sparkly crystal lead tones coming from north coil but I like how the one post said switching to south coil active and north off sounded with a noticeable difference. Lets do some comparing distances. Anyone with a single coil strat to start with. Measure from line of active poles on single or split which ever is in use and distance to the saddles. I used same as jer's 3 dimarzio high output dp104s which are sweetest when split I use all North poles lol. I have heard people using dp100's which are same high output level and multi mode but are configured bass heavy. The dp104s are Treble 8.0,Mid 6.0 and bass 4.0. The dp100's are Treble 5.5,Mid7.5 and Bass 8.0. Atleast the strat has something there but gibson's pup design thru the years makes no sense when you are on a tone quest. With those dust covers and half powered magnet and their standard is a one wire hot and grey braided shielding as ground with no options unless you want to take it apart and find those two extra wires hidden in the middle to turn into a 4 conductor. I just don't understand how Gibson has built guitars for what 120 years and they never built 99.99999% of the electrics with nothing in the center of the body. Some companies will sneak a single in between two buckers in the middle. What are they afraid of the phasing???? In fact I dont think any mass market guitar companies ever built an electric with 3 buckers. Ive even seen cheap guitars that have only pup and its a bucker right at the bridge. God put it in the middle atleast. aka acoustic sound hole region.
Waldos right If I played on my neck dp104 with N.coil active the tone becomes darker,richer and kinda hollowish sounding as gibson would call their rythym sector lol. When I play on my bridge dp104 N.coil active (hardely ever) it's tinny and thin and ready to distort. Only sounds goods with certain fx eg. rotary leslie stomp box. One tip they give gibson style players is to flip their bridge pup to get the screw poles closer to the middle.
If I was stuck with only one choice of the 2 lame mass market options I would have to pick the neck pup w/25 1/2scale. I'm a middle split buckerman myself and rarely leave even though you can get some bluesy tones out of the neck pup. Once you hit that Jerry tone on the head I don't even care for fx at all. That clean tone that sounds just like Jer's on the N.coil middle with exact setup is a buzz on its own and is a complete thrill to play and very hard to put the guitar down. Thanks to SMS and Waldo it changed the whole way I approach the guitar on my pick attacks,strumming,muting,and using notes that sounded like crap both highest and lowest on a standard guitar setup.
It's funny how companies especially Gibson new models using coil splitting,active volume pots with on board buffers slowly coming out each year and they act like its ground breaking. Next there will onboard fx loops. Everything the NAMM awards and loopers,tru bypassing,preamping,etc. Jerry has already been there and done that 20 years ago.
Lets post some measurements from middle pup N.coil poles to G string bridge saddle. Gonna go measure mine now. Mine are coming from a custom sg with a 25 1/2 scale.
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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby hippieguy1954 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:52 pm

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Re: Rosebud Middle PUP

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:55 pm

Bobbybriand wrote:In fact I dont think any mass market guitar companies ever built an electric with 3 buckers.


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