Alligator Relic clone?

Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby schmidtz » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:06 am

TI4-1009 wrote:
mgbills wrote:Waldo…please send me that photo, if you're willing. Holy F$%K! That is cool.


Right click, "Save Picture As"


If you ever want a photo and the above doesn't work (because clicking is disabled or whatever), the easiest thing to do (in Chrome) is type "view-source:" before the URL, then find the url of the photo (typically underlined in blue, click on it to verify it's the photo you want), right click that and select "Save link as". If you want to save whole webpages for future reference, just highlight everything and save it as a .html file on your desktop. To get the photos to work in this scenario, you'll have to spoof the directory paths and populate the photos by repeating the "Save Link As" steps outlined above for all photos on the page.

If you have IE, or FireFox, pressing F12 will get you to the DOM, where you can drop down whatever div is holding the photo you want, then "Save Link As" like before.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:08 am

Thanks! That's awesome.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:12 am

mgbills wrote:Point taken T. I hope.

But another thing I find interesting is the saddle compensation. The low E is pulled back as one would expect...but look at the G saddle.

Curiouser & Curiouser.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Do you suppose those saddles could still move when that bridge was removed??
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby tatittle » Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:59 am

It doesn't look too wacky to my eyes. I also often notice Jerry has the D saddle further back than the stereotypical diagonal too, which I often end up with after intonating. I have found there can be fairly significant differences one string to another, maybe bc of inconsistencies in the metal or winding or whatever. I have even fiddled with slightly intonating the G saddle sharp (like the pic?) to offset the natural inconsistencies of a fretboard and ever so slightly seems to help sometimes. My obsessive nature used to worry about when saddles didn't match a perfect diagonal (which I also get often), now I just accept it---as long as its not ridiculous of course. I am beginning to think that intonation can actually be customized to suit somebody's touch...Im talking VERY slight variation of course.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:32 am

My observation of the saddle position on the Tiger bridge was more to note that if the action on Tiger was 7/64" at the 12th, wouldn't that necessitate that the G (3rd string) saddle be pulled back much more dramatically? This is not to belabor a point.

My intent is really to get to the truth of the matter. I've just pulled up a bunch of photos of Jerry playing the Tiger guitar. In most photos, including the close up on Waldo's site, one can observe the 6th string saddle back about 3/4th of the span. Not the G string. When people attempt that setup of 7/64" at the 12th, here on this board they almost always have a problem (on a Strat) with having enough saddle travel on the low E & G string. Now it is customary to move a bridge back 1/8"-3/16" from 25-1/2" when building. This helps correct (I believe) for the string actually being the hypotenuse.

Can anyone add to this?
1) Waldo, AO, and Matt Moriarty measure these guitars. The scale length is 25.5"
2) Strats set up with String action of 7/64" at the 12th fret have issues with saddle travel to properly compensate on the 3rd & 6th Strings.
3) I haven't tried this on all guitars brands, styles & bridges, but I have attempted this on my AO modified LP with a harmonica bridge.
4) I just looked at another round of Tiger pics. The saddle placements are consistent with the recent crusty photo.

So...under what conditions would it be possible for the Tiger guitar to have a scale length of 25-1/2" …And…not have to compensate the G-string at least 5/16" longer…with that action…and have proper intonation?

I am not searching to substantiate my own ontological fallacy, if one exists. I'm only looking for understanding & truth. Which means I'm willing to be wrong.
What am I missing?

If I'm not missing any factors, then the only conclusion I can draw is that what Mr. Brawer meant to say to Mr. Wald…is that Tiger's action was 7/64" at the 24th fret, just like Rosebud. (Who's bridge looks amazingly similar to Tigers when seen being played, but not in the RROF photos.)((although with more of the traditional wedge pattern)).

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby TI4-1009 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:03 am

TI4-1009 wrote:
waldo041 wrote:Image

~waldo



If you look at the Tiger bridge in the Herb Greene photos, the "immaculate" poster that's for sale, and the fold-out from Guitar World mag, the saddle settings (mainly the D and G) all seem more "normal"???
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:57 am

String gauge & metallurgy are definately a consideration, and I clearly missed that in my hypothesis.

I can't get a set of Vinci's, but I have some good intelligence from the kindness of Mr. Waldo. If my OCD keeps me ticking on this subject through the weekend I may get to test it next week. My inlaws are here for the rest of the week, so I'll be putting on my Normal Guy hat. It's a tough fit let me tell ya~

:lol:
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:28 pm

Just a follow up.

Not conclusive, but I was just doing some minor stuff to the first Tigerized Strat I build. It typically resides with my son, but this weekend it ended up in my hands. He's an acoustic builder & player. So he's playing this Strat with 0.011's. Early indications are that larger string gauges definitely play into the whole intonation point. This was probably obvious to some, but I guess I needed to work through it.

I have not thoroughly and conclusively tested this yet. The guitar has well-used Elixirs that look like caterpillars. The G-string (3rd) is 0.024", and the saddle doesn't need to be nearly so far back. Waldo shared that there is some evidence that Jerry may have used two Vinci sets, and that he preferred an unwound 18.

More digging required, but I at least wanted to eat 1/2 of a crow, to eliminate future confusion.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby waldo041 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:30 am

mgbills wrote:Just a follow up.

Not conclusive, but I was just doing some minor stuff to the first Tigerized Strat I build. It typically resides with my son, but this weekend it ended up in my hands. He's an acoustic builder & player. So he's playing this Strat with 0.011's. Early indications are that larger string gauges definitely play into the whole intonation point. This was probably obvious to some, but I guess I needed to work through it.

I have not thoroughly and conclusively tested this yet. The guitar has well-used Elixirs that look like caterpillars. The G-string (3rd) is 0.024", and the saddle doesn't need to be nearly so far back. Waldo shared that there is some evidence that Jerry may have used two Vinci sets, and that he preferred an unwound 18.

More digging required, but I at least wanted to eat 1/2 of a crow, to eliminate future confusion.
Peace
M
mgbills wrote:Just a follow up.

Not conclusive, but I was just doing some minor stuff to the first Tigerized Strat I build. It typically resides with my son, but this weekend it ended up in my hands. He's an acoustic builder & player. So he's playing this Strat with 0.011's. Early indications are that larger string gauges definitely play into the whole intonation point. This was probably obvious to some, but I guess I needed to work through it.

I have not thoroughly and conclusively tested this yet. The guitar has well-used Elixirs that look like caterpillars. The G-string (3rd) is 0.024", and the saddle doesn't need to be nearly so far back. Waldo shared that there is some evidence that Jerry may have used two Vinci sets, and that he preferred an unwound 18.

More digging required, but I at least wanted to eat 1/2 of a crow, to eliminate future confusion.
Peace
M


Also evidence that he used his vinci custom set with a .017.

I was using the 677 set with a low e .050 and a high e .011 and the .018 G from the 699 set, but I have the custom set on my Tiger right now with the low e .050 and the high e .011 and am really digging the combo.

.050
.037
.027
.017
.013
.011

YMMV.

~waldo
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby TI4-1009 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:59 am

Just for fun.... 8)

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby spacefunkologist » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:12 pm

Just finished up this Gator relic project....its an Allparts body and neck both finished in amber tint nitro....Seymour Duncan Antiquity Surf Set, Callaham bridge assembly, got the mil spec knobs from Leo...came out pretty good I think. Kind of my tribute to the Gator before it got all tricked out as you would see in the 71 France show..... Can get some nice sparkling sounds coming from my Princeton Reverb at home volumes...Haven't opened her up yet at band practice with the JBL 2x12 but will report back :cool:

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby James-T » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:26 pm

Just came across my FB feed. Sorry if someone else has posted it. I haven't been following this thread very closely. Pretty cool! :smile:

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James

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby ScubaGeek » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:52 pm

gr8fullfred wrote:It would be pretty weird for Fender to ever offer an Alligator replica because:

Except for the pickups, Jerry pretty much ditched most of the strat like features:

1)good bye tremolo, hello hardtail. The tremolo (wammy bar) is one of the things that makes a strat a strat. With no tremolo it ceases to become strat like and starts to be more like an SG.


Except if the Strat came out of the factory with a hardtail bridge to begin with. Robert Cray typically plays such an instrument, and Stevie Ray Vaughan's white Strat with the lipstick tube pickups was a hardtail also (though actually, that's not even a Fender, but a copy assembled by guitar repairman Charlie Wirz). There's probably others, but those are the two examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Most other guitarists you see using Strats seem to prefer the tremolo version, even if they don't use the tremolo, like Eric Clapton, for instance. Eldon Shamblin, who played guitar with western swing kingpin Bob Wills, had one of the first Strats built (reputedly the first one with a metallic finish) jammed a piece of wood between the tremolo block and the body to keep it stable and I believe he said "I threw out the handle" (meaning the tremolo arm itself). But Eldon's guitar was a freebie given to him by Leo Fender himself, and it was a new model, so apart from Eldon probably not wanting to appear ungrateful for such a gift, he may also have not known he could have had a hardtail version.

The weird thing about Jerry is he converted a tremolo version of the guitar to non-tremolo. That's literally the only time I've heard of anyone doing that, other than maybe Ry Cooder, who installed a lap steel bridge assembly on one of his Strats and a Bigsby on another one (though I think in the pictures I've seen, he removed the whammy bar from the Bigsby tailpiece).

And as far as Jerry playing stock Strats, didn't he use one for summer of 1972? He's playing one at the Veneta Oregon show and I think at least one other I've seen photos of. And didn't he play a rosewood neck Strat during the February 1970 Fillmore East run, also?
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby James-T » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:28 pm

Jerry played some different strats for sure and used stock or close to stock ones after the Europe tour and if you listen to the Dicks picks CDs from that post E72 era you can hear the difference. I like the E72 tone the best but he dialed in some great tones at those Filmore east shows in early 1970 and there is a YouTube clip of him playing a Strat during the Feb 13 Dark Star.

Who knows why he didn't just stop the Aligarors trem block with wood but my guess is he liked to tinker with his gear. I often wonder what the E72 tour would have sounded like if he played the Wolf which I've read was taken on that tour and had a terribly tragic fall which ultimately led to its awesome make over.

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby Jon S. » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:54 am

Not that it's Alligator-correct per se, but because it's fun to share pics of cool old gear like this, I have one of these. A year or more ago, I listed it for sale here for a fair if not bargain price. Not even an inquiry. So I'm using it now as a paperweight! (BTW, this is not posted to "invite" an offer - too late! :-) )

Image

Image

Image
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