Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby caspersvapors » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:50 pm

one thing thats never been addressed is what jerry was doing with the tone/volume knobs on his guitar, Im pretty sure he was rolling off his volume which also curbed some of the harshness
Image
User avatar
caspersvapors
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:58 pm

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby Trecia » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:16 pm

Interesting responses so far... Yes I'm going on the assumption that the 10/5.5/0 setting probably is not for everybody, but for the size and type of gigs JG was doing I'm thinking it's part of the "clearing up" of his tone I notice between the late 60s and early mid 70s... Concurrent with the alligator mods.
Prove me right! Prove me wrong!
So long as I can hear another JG song!
Trecia
TC
TC
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby Tennessee Jedi » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:53 am

Trecia wrote:So long as I can hear another JG song!

:hd:


Closer I get the more elusive the tone seems ......
Chasing Garcia
User avatar
Tennessee Jedi
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4225
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:29 am
Location: Bucks Co.Pa

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby waldo041 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:02 am

The MosValve input impedance is different then the McIntosh amps similar to the Mc2300 most guys are using. So, theoretically the outcomes will be different because the math is different at the coupling of the Fender Preamp and the different amps. When the equipment is correct, the known Jerry settings work. No need for random, or altered settings IF the later hybrid rig tone is what you are after. Guitar specs, pickups and onboard preamp(or not) will help for dialing in a specific year. All this has been covered, so I will try and answer the OP's question, it probably started when he went to the hybrid combo's or very soon after. They were very keen on frequency separation and Weir talks about using Humbuckers to help differentiate his guitar tone from Jerry's. He talks about noticing this early on, and trying to specifically stay out of Jerry's tonal space. Jerry's theme was consistency and I have seen in my research of his rigs this played out. His choice to stay with the Hybrid tube pre/solid state amp was because of it's consistency. Alligator, believe it or not, is very much like all his other guitars minus a couple frets, inline tuners and single coils. Yes, the wood make up is different between them all, but the setups and wirings are pretty consistent with small differences. He used Travis Beans for a short period specifically for their consistency. Same thing for his love of the Fender Preamp, McIntosh amps, and JBL's. Budman is the single most used piece of equipment that he used. It was there from the W.O.S. up until the end. But yet it is the single piece of equipment most are willing to try and replace.

That said, I am curious about why some would be looking into the settings of this Pro Reverb when he is playing a pedal steel guitar? Those settings would not translate. Also, just to clarify, there is a Mid potentiometer on the Vibrato channel of the pro reverb he is using, it is not on the Normal channel.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby Pete B. » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:18 am

waldo041 wrote:That said, I am curious about why some would be looking into the settings of this Pro Reverb when he is playing a pedal steel guitar? Those settings would not translate. Also, just to clarify, there is a Mid potentiometer on the Vibrato channel of the pro reverb he is using, it is not on the Normal channel.

~waldo


The OP asked if the 10,5.5,0 thing came from Jer's Pedal Steel amp settings.
Having dialed in quite a few Steels through Twins myself, I didn't think he would have had the Bass at 0... I tried to find a definitive pic, but it turned out to be of a Pro.
:D

Here's a closer look at a '68 Pro (No Mid pot in either channel):
http://maindragmadness.files.wordpress. ... g_1710.jpg
Image
Last edited by Pete B. on Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Pete B.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:59 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby waldo041 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:27 am

Pete B. wrote:
waldo041 wrote:That said, I am curious about why some would be looking into the settings of this Pro Reverb when he is playing a pedal steel guitar? Those settings would not translate. Also, just to clarify, there is a Mid potentiometer on the Vibrato channel of the pro reverb he is using, it is not on the Normal channel.

~waldo




The OP asked if the 10,5.5,0 thing came from Jer's Pedal Steel amp settings.
Having dialed in quite a few Steels through Twins myself, I didn't think he would have had the Bass at 0... I tried to find a definitive pic, but it turned out to be of a Pro.
Woopsee-doodle.
:lol:

Here's a closer look at a '68 Pro:
http://maindragmadness.files.wordpress. ... g_1710.jpg
Image


cool, I didn't really look into the picture, I went straight to the schematics. And of the 2 I looked at, the one I honed in on showed a mid pot, the other does not.

This is the one I looked at
http://ampwares.com/schematics/pro_reverb_aa1069.pdf

This must be the one he had.
http://ampwares.com/schematics/proreverb_ab668.pdf

interesting that the aa1069 circuits uses a .02mfd mid capacitor.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby RiseandFall » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:11 pm

They were very keen on frequency separation and Weir talks about using Humbuckers to help differentiate his guitar tone from Jerry's. He talks about noticing this early on, and trying to specifically stay out of Jerry's tonal space.


They were ALL keenly aware of this. They also gave Phil a great deal of the bass spectrum without stepping on it, with regard to keyboards especially.
Way back when, I was an audio engineer and had a few conversations with Healey and Harry P before shows about just this.
It is amazing how much mud goes away when you are the only instrument in a given frequency sector.
Standard stuff I guess, but many overlook it.
RiseandFall
Keith
Keith
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:37 pm

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby zambiland » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:57 am

RiseandFall wrote:
They were very keen on frequency separation and Weir talks about using Humbuckers to help differentiate his guitar tone from Jerry's. He talks about noticing this early on, and trying to specifically stay out of Jerry's tonal space.


They were ALL keenly aware of this. They also gave Phil a great deal of the bass spectrum without stepping on it, with regard to keyboards especially.
Way back when, I was an audio engineer and had a few conversations with Healey and Harry P before shows about just this.
It is amazing how much mud goes away when you are the only instrument in a given frequency sector.
Standard stuff I guess, but many overlook it.


From what I understand, Healey also high passed the kick drums as much as up to 150hz. That's going to free up a lot of sonic space and is pretty much the opposite of what most mixers do. They'll amp up the kick and thin out the bass guitar.
zambiland
Senior Member
 
Posts: 549
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:13 pm
Location: Boulder CO

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:24 am

Trecia wrote:...I wonder if the 10/0 setting was a trick picked up from the pedal steel world/NRPS. ...



Definitely not from that. Pedal steel players do the opposite of guitarists. Pedal steel pickups are SO thin and bright and upper midrangy that nearly all steel players using Fenders will have the treble nearly off, which happens around 3 or 3.3 on the treble knob, and the bass pretty full, between 4 and 7, also with midrange somewhere in the middle. If the cabling is capacitive and is sucking some tone from the pickup, then the treble may shift up to around 5, but rarely any higher. The treble-10, bass-0 approach would be unusable on pedal steel.

I think that for Jerry, he found that this is almost required to get enough treble bite thru a JBL. I know people perceive JBL's as being bright speakers, but really, they're only bright in the very high frequencies due to the metal dustcap, but that's not the treble range that most "guitar" speakers have. The JBL is very smooth thru the 2-5kHz range which actually makes it a dark and mellow sounding speaker. They really need the treble to juice that region. Typical guitar speakers have a very presence treble spike in that area so they don't need so much treble added.

B
... and it's just like any other day that's ever been...
User avatar
SarnoMusicSolutions
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:15 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO - USA

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby Trecia » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:51 am

Do we know when JBls came into play? This is starting to sound like it all came down with the wall of sound/Mac buildup. Must have been a heady time either way. Lots if changes afoot in the early 70s.
Trecia
TC
TC
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby waldo041 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:25 am

Trecia wrote:Do we know when JBls came into play? This is starting to sound like it all came down with the wall of sound/Mac buildup. Must have been a heady time either way. Lots if changes afoot in the early 70s.


Jbl's have been with the band since the beginning of the band.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby tigerstrat » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:38 am

Something to bear in mind when thinking you have aurally pinpointed a change in gear components or amp settings: on any given night or at any given moment, the tone knob on Jerry's guitar may have been nudged to a slightly different position, resulting in a very noticeable change in the sound.
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
User avatar
tigerstrat
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4632
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:20 pm
Location: Portland,OR

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby RiseandFall » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:23 pm

Something to bear in mind when thinking you have aurally pinpointed a change in gear components or amp settings: on any given night or at any given moment, the tone knob on Jerry's guitar may have been nudged to a slightly different position, resulting in a very noticeable change in the sound.


Truer words were never spoken, at least in my case. The difference between muddy/Jerry tone/ice pick treble all lies within the 3-5 range on my tone knob.
RiseandFall
Keith
Keith
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 12:37 pm

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby Jon S. » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:13 pm

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:I know people perceive JBL's as being bright speakers, but really, they're only bright in the very high frequencies due to the metal dustcap, but that's not the treble range that most "guitar" speakers have. The JBL is very smooth thru the 2-5kHz range which actually makes it a dark and mellow sounding speaker. They really need the treble to juice that region.

My experience precisely - thanks for the straightforward explanation of why.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1480
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: Treble 10 bass 0. When did it start?

Postby tatittle » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:14 pm

Ditto...never really thought about that empirically. Boy those extreme upper frequencies aren't matched by any other though..its like a bright switch or presence.
tatittle
Magic Hand
Magic Hand
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:44 am
Location: NJ via Bklyn; Detroit; Charleston; Boulder; Miami; D.C.; etc

PreviousNext

Return to Jerry Tone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests