Auto wah/envelope filters

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby waldo041 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:24 pm

Jon S. wrote:One followup question I do have is did Jerry precede his MuTron with any effect (turned on, obviously) that would have served as a sort of "sustainer?"

P.S. to waldo: Just want to confirm before ordering - the regular Jerry version of your buffer, i.e., the not-unity-gain version, am I correct that its output is slightly less than unity?


No, Jerry did have an OD in front of his Mu3 but it was not for the purpose you have grown accustomed to with your comp in front. I believe you have developed a sense of what an envelope filter is "supposed" to sound and react like from what you have dialed in with you digital version. Now you have a sense that is how the Proton is supposed to react like. With everything set up correctly the Proton should be sounding like Jerry with the Peak and Gains in-between 10:30-12 o'clock and the decay in the recommended mu3 setting of 3 o'clock.

yes, the regular version is slightly less the unity, around 1.7dB less. This is equal to about 1 notch on your sms or fyd's volume control.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby Jon S. » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:44 pm

Now I know what I need to work with. Thanks. :smile:
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby jenkins » Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:59 pm

I've had great luck with the emma discombobulator, a little hard to dial in but can sound just like a mutron to all but the most hardcore listener, especially with an OBEL, which i think is almost critical to using an envelope filter live.

Does anyone know how similar the circuits are between the mutron & the emma? I don't see any ways Emma is true bypass, it effects my tone whether it is engaged or switched off. seems to have some sort of buffer in it similar to the mutron, although I've never actually used a mutron III, somehow the buffer effect has been described on rukind. also it seems like there is a rather big variation to the individual pedals. this has also been said about the mutron.
jenkins
Billy
Billy
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:56 pm

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby hippieguy1954 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:43 am

What I find very interesting is that with Tiger wiring (haven't tried this with a non Tiger wired guitar), if I set the envelope filter to trigger well with my guitar volume pot at about 3/4 or lower, when I raise the guitar volume all the way it does not seem to trigger as easy with the same settings and pick attack.
I'm not sure what that's about considering the EF is before the guitar volume pot. :roll:
Jim

First show: 1973
Last show: 1994
User avatar
hippieguy1954
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby Jon S. » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:55 am

hippieguy1954 wrote:What I find very interesting is that with Tiger wiring (haven't tried this with a non Tiger wired guitar), if I set the envelope filter to trigger well with my guitar volume pot at about 3/4 or lower, when I raise the guitar volume all the way it does not seem to trigger as easy with the same settings and pick attack.
I'm not sure what that's about considering the EF is before the guitar volume pot. :roll:

Is it possible that you adjust your own picking in response to the higher available volume?

Myself, regarding my new Proton, though I've struggled to make it work for me. I'm coming around to accepting that, for this to happen, I'd need to adjust my own picking attack to be more like Jerry's. Where I'm leaning now is probably no. This may be where I, personally, draw the line (I've been playing guitar for a long time and like my own picking style just fine).

But buying it has had one quite salutory effect for me. It's given me an on-hand baseline against which to compare and adjust my Line 6 M13's Boost Comp and Tron Up model settings. I believe I've been able to adjust them to be significantly closer as a result of A-Bing my M13 with the Proton (as just one example, I've lessened the amount of compression I'm using which has improved the decay characteristics of the Tron Up model).

It's all good!
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby joethepainter » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:34 am

Jon S. wrote:Thanks again and I think I've put my finger on my Proton issue.

#1, the battery did need to be replaced. The CB1 is supposed to "see" 9V. I know from a past experience that it will still function when the battery is down as low as 6V (perhaps lower, but I once reached and then measured 6V from the battery so that's my "tested" lower voltage limit) but the tone/output is affected. Replacing my battery made an audible difference (it also let me ease back at least an "hour" on the Proton's gain pot). I also very slightly raised my PUP heights which helped, too. I'm definitely not now having issues triggering the effect.

My issue - to the extent I actually have one, maybe the problem is my own in that I just haven't practiced enough with the effect to adapt to how best to pick with it - is not with the triggering, it's with the decay. This is a guitar I've never had any sustain issues with before whatsoever but with the Proton the guitar's notes - not the effect's decay frequency level but the overall decay of the guitar's own output - are not sustaining as long as would be ideal for this specific effect. At least that's what I'm hearing/feeling.


Hi Jon, been away for awhile, thought I'd chime in. For triggering the envelope, and for note clarity, I tend to pick more towards the bridge, middle super 2 coil-tap, guitar volume around 7. I'm using a modded Strat with a Wald buffer and OBEL into a junction box, pedals (Proton>Octave>2 stacked and modded tubescreamers>DD-3), Fender Mustang Floor for amp modeling (Twin w/Jerry settings), Gem-Sound 100W stereo power amp, into 2 JBL E-120's. I haven't had a problem with the decay of the effect, as far as I can tell. When I hit the partial F#m chord in the beginning of the verse in 'Estimated', the envelope 'ohhwws' and 'whaas' through several measures. As to your guitar's lack of perceived output, I don't know. I thought the OBEL was supposed to show the EF a full pickup signal before the guitar's volume knob, so turning up the guitar will just give you a louder version of what you already have dialed in. Or not. In any case, on my Proton, I have the gain set at noon, and the peak at around 1:30. Maybe you could try a comp in front, just to see. When I run my rig through the PA (board, compressor/limiter, amp), my guitar tone is noticeably smoother, I'm guessing because of the compression. Couldn't hurt to try, right?
joethepainter
Pigpen
Pigpen
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Philly, PA

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby hippieguy1954 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:24 am

Jon S. wrote:
hippieguy1954 wrote:What I find very interesting is that with Tiger wiring (haven't tried this with a non Tiger wired guitar), if I set the envelope filter to trigger well with my guitar volume pot at about 3/4 or lower, when I raise the guitar volume all the way it does not seem to trigger as easy with the same settings and pick attack.
I'm not sure what that's about considering the EF is before the guitar volume pot. :roll:

Is it possible that you adjust your own picking in response to the higher available volume?


After more experimenting, I would say you are correct, Jon S. It seems I'm afraid to blow a speaker or my ears, :lol:

If I do keep my pic attack the same as before I raise the volume, it triggers just fine, but the transient spikes at these high volumes are almost scary. I guess the E-120's can take it, although Jerry went through quite a few. I'm sure I'm gonna find out :P
Jim

First show: 1973
Last show: 1994
User avatar
hippieguy1954
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby joethepainter » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:01 am

hippieguy1954 wrote:
Jon S. wrote:
hippieguy1954 wrote:What I find very interesting is that with Tiger wiring (haven't tried this with a non Tiger wired guitar), if I set the envelope filter to trigger well with my guitar volume pot at about 3/4 or lower, when I raise the guitar volume all the way it does not seem to trigger as easy with the same settings and pick attack.
I'm not sure what that's about considering the EF is before the guitar volume pot. :roll:

Is it possible that you adjust your own picking in response to the higher available volume?


After more experimenting, I would say you are correct, Jon S. It seems I'm afraid to blow a speaker or my ears, :lol:

If I do keep my pic attack the same as before I raise the volume, it triggers just fine, but the transient spikes at these high volumes are almost scary. I guess the E-120's can take it, although Jerry went through quite a few. I'm sure I'm gonna find out :P


Ha, that's what I find, too. I'm pushing 2 E-120's in stereo @100 watts each...I had to stand in the hall outside of my practice room yesterday, it was so loud! I was jamming along with the 'Estimated' from Hartford 77, and I find I have to be very conscious of my picking to get snappy notes, yet not blow out my left ear drum in the process.
joethepainter
Pigpen
Pigpen
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Philly, PA

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby hippieguy1954 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:06 am

I hear ya, (pun not intended :lol:), I'm running about 210 watts into 2 and sometimes 4 E-120's.
Jim

First show: 1973
Last show: 1994
User avatar
hippieguy1954
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby waldo041 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:26 pm

Jon S. wrote:Myself, regarding my new Proton, though I've struggled to make it work for me. I'm coming around to accepting that, for this to happen, I'd need to adjust my own picking attack to be more like Jerry's. Where I'm leaning now is probably no. This may be where I, personally, draw the line (I've been playing guitar for a long time and like my own picking style just fine).


Jon, i know you know this but feel i need to state it just in case you don't realize what you have stated. Having the equipment is only a small part of acquiring his tone, the majority of it comes from his hands. Any of the good Jerry type players have either acquired or already had the picking attack that he had. That is why they can emulate his playing REGARDLESS of what equipment they use. This is why Jerry sounds like Jerry on whatever he played. That said, when these players use gear very similar to or exactly like his can be really close to spot on. I know in the past you have drawn the line on many things, mcintosh's and jbl's are just a couple of examples i can remember. This is pretty much no different, if you want to try and emulate his tone, it starts with the hands.

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
waldo041
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2830
Joined: Thu May 19, 2005 10:58 am
Location: Indiana

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby Jon S. » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:46 pm

Thanks, waldo. Fair feedback, well intended, and equally well appreciated. Never say never! You’re pulling my chain of course on the mc and jbls but as I eventually came around to those, now, I will not condemn you nor yet will I deny. :) There may, though, be a more significant qualitative difference when it comes to personal style and technique. I love and respect Jerry’s musicianship and tone. And I do want to sound like Jerry. But I don’t want to be him (not that that’s possible anyway but hopefully you know what I mean). I’ve borrowed so much from Jerry and owe him more than I can articulate but, in the end, I’m myself. And it’s far more than just my hands not being like Jerry’s (or my not using them as he did). My phrasing and note choices are not Jerry's either. Influenced by? Absolutely. Identical - not close. Before I got so much into Jerry, my first guitar hero was Dickey. To this day, I'm sure I’ve borrowed as much from Dickey as Jerry and everywhere I play people tell me the same so I believe it's true. (I’ll try to post a lead excerpt from my band on Eyes that may help illustrate what I mean about how much Dickie I’ve also "stolen" over the years.) And hopefully, I’ve developed and thrown a few original ideas into the mix, too. The result, highlights and warts and all, is me. That’s who I most want to be ...my musical goal, as challenging or limited as it may be. Someone else might hold my guitar and say, this ain’t like Jerry’s: the strings are too light; the action is too low; the guitar weighs too little. And I might reply, hey, Jerry looked to me, in those end years, to be literally in pain – physical, spiritual, or both. I’ve already dealt with and addressed (successfully) tennis elbow, debilitating lower back pain, and carpal tunnel syndrome. You think I want more of those?! No thanks, I’ll keep my own strings, action, and guitar. So I know I’ll never be spot on. Maybe not even really close. This I accept. But I will be happy to be playing in the band, bringing more of Jerry’s music and spirit out into the world, helping in my own small way to keep his legacy alive and evolving. That’s what I really want from my singing and playing guitar (and I didn’t even get into my singing – I’ve been told I can do a fairly decent vocal Bobby but Jerry? forgetaboutit!). My one significant resulting concern is that, sometimes when I post shit like this, people may misconstrue it as saying Jon doesn’t really appreciate Jerry or the focused assistance and advice of the good folks here on how to sound authentically like him. But I do. I really do. If I’ve failed to express this clearly in the past and I know I have, I apologize for missing the target. In the end, my aspiration is to gather more than I spill but at the same time to fill in the spilt parts with other gatherings and also a part of myself.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby entraind » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:07 pm

Jon, You definitely should try out a Tru Tron, the proton is extremely finicky compared to the the Tru tron. You should have no problem getting a fat sound no matter what your picking is like through the Tru Tron because it is so easy to tweak. After 10 years with the Q tron and 2 with the Proton I'm finally happy with an envelope filter!
User avatar
entraind
Wall of Sound
Wall of Sound
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 10:08 am

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby Jon S. » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:31 pm

"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1502
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby ricepr » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:32 pm

entraind wrote:Jon, You definitely should try out a Tru Tron, the proton is extremely finicky compared to the the Tru tron. You should have no problem getting a fat sound no matter what your picking is like through the Tru Tron because it is so easy to tweak. After 10 years with the Q tron and 2 with the Proton I'm finally happy with an envelope filter!



Trutron kills Emma, which is noticeably better than Proton, for me
ricepr
Wavy Gravy
Wavy Gravy
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:34 am

Re: Auto wah/envelope filters

Postby NSP » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:30 am

entraind wrote:Jon, You definitely should try out a Tru Tron, the proton is extremely finicky compared to the the Tru tron. You should have no problem getting a fat sound no matter what your picking is like through the Tru Tron because it is so easy to tweak. After 10 years with the Q tron and 2 with the Proton I'm finally happy with an envelope filter!


I own a MuIII that was tuned up by Richard Lingenberg and sounds fantastic, but I now find myself actually leaning towards the TruTron. I was skeptical that it wouldn't live up to the vintage box...but it does. Worth every cent. My buddy has a Proton that I've used, and for me, it just doesn't get there.
User avatar
NSP
Rosemary
Rosemary
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 am
Location: Madison, WI

PreviousNext

Return to Jerry Tone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests