Question for the Tapers

Question for the Tapers

Postby seniorpesca » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:14 pm

How many tapers back in the day or even now would tape JUST for personal collection? To me the whole point of taping is to spread the music. This weekend I ran into a NASTY guy at the milwaukee and chicago DSO shows. I approached him very respectfully after the show was over in milwaukee and asked him where he uploads. He gives me a extremely snotty look not even looking at me saying nowhere. Then I ask if I can give him my email or anything and he gets even nastier. WHAT A DICK!!

So please tell me guys...is that practice weird or more common then i think. I usually don't interact with tapers unless I'm east coast where I know most of them from living out there for years. Just the whole notion of collecting ONLY for personal seems like smut collection or something weird. Its music....spread the love...am i out of line???
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby mgbills » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:26 pm

I can't tell you how grateful I've been for Internet Archive.

I saw the boys from '81-'95 (more in the early years), and had maybe 90 tapes. Hard ...hard...HARD to get. In fact ...now that I think about it, I got a set of nearly every The Eleven ever played by a really cool guy that was on the AOL Dead Area. So Internet era. I received most of my SBD's from a great guy I went to college with. I went back in the early 90's to finish an Org Chem degree, and this dude was in a fill class I needed to take. His brother was into the DAT thing.

Most of the other stuff was hissy, noisy, and well loved. I bought some killer Jerry 8x10 photos...maybe '83. There was all this cool hippy-dippy stuff on the back, and a line that said "tapes traded & photos sold." Yea well, called the guy...unless I had one of 33 shows that he didn't possess ...I wasn't getting a thing. Ran into that many many times. I think I found as many tapes as I ever was able to acquire. I used to carry Maxell (XL II's) in my '78 Westy just in case.

Bottom line is there were some very cool people, and there were a lot of unkind holier-than-thou F&*%'s that wouldn't help a dying dog.

That...was the one problem I couldn't seem to crack.

But the rest of the Bus-Trip was pretty fun :P

Can't imagine why somebody would be hoarding DSO tapes, other than Rob Eaton...who is somewhat hoardish of DSO digital files.

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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby playingdead » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:44 pm

Wow. Taping a tribute band ... and then hoarding the tapes ... LOL!

I taped my share of Dead shows from 80-85 (usually with a D-5 and Sennheiser 421s) and also sent off plenty of copies of low generation soundboards to my trading partners when I lucked into a source for 3rd generation digital boards off an F1 in 84-85. That was what it was all about back in the day. I was always happy to do a B&P (blanks and postage) for a newbie and once loaned out my entire 300+ cassette collection to a guy 50 at a time who stayed up for days straight running them through a high end Tascam dubber deck.

That wound up paying off a couple years later when a double sided tape suitcase of mine was stolen (96 tapes), and I was able to get back some of my favorites from the guy. He even insisted that I take HIS copies and made new ones for himself so I would lose only a generation. What goes around comes around.
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby seniorpesca » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:58 pm

It was his attitude that shocked me more than anything. He could have said in a very friendly matter that hes a hoarder but naw :shock:

saw him the next night at the chicago DSO show :lol: (they played 4/8/72) I had alot of beers in me and was real tempted to bug him about giving him my email but I restrained :drink: :hd:
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby jlg327 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:38 pm

seniorpesca wrote:How many tapers back in the day or even now would tape JUST for personal collection? To me the whole point of taping is to spread the music. This weekend I ran into a NASTY guy at the milwaukee and chicago DSO shows. I approached him very respectfully after the show was over in milwaukee and asked him where he uploads. He gives me a extremely snotty look not even looking at me saying nowhere. Then I ask if I can give him my email or anything and he gets even nastier. WHAT A DICK!!

So please tell me guys...is that practice weird or more common then i think. I usually don't interact with tapers unless I'm east coast where I know most of them from living out there for years. Just the whole notion of collecting ONLY for personal seems like smut collection or something weird. Its music....spread the love...am i out of line???


I wrote a long-ish response to this post, but lost it to the internet gods.

I have taped and there is a portion of my collection which is not circulated, but for legitimate reasons:

(1) The band asked me not to circulate.
(2) There were unresolved issues with regard to mechanical royalties. Basically, you need to pay merely to perform the work of someone else (performance royalties) and then you need to pay again if you disseminate copies of that performance (mechanical royalties). I'll cut to the chase and say that the argument that uploading concerts to archive.org is "fair use" is bullshit -except- in the limited case where the artist recorded owns their copyright and gave you permission. This is typically not the case. More often, record companies own the copyright - however, you would still be allowed to post IF you monitored the number of downloads and reported that to the appropriate royalty collection agency and paid the necessary royalties...but who wants to be on the hook for such constant monitoring. The big pain in the ass comes when an artist tells you that they're cool with taping, but the record label says no. I had this happen: reached out to the artist's management and was told "no." Went to the show and had the opportunity to talk to the artist at setbreak. He told me he was completely cool with taping and that I should've brought my rig. Unfortunately, in situations like that, as much as we may not like it, it is the copyright owner (i.e. record label) who has the final say. Uploading tracks and not paying the royalties puts you, and possibly the artist, at risk of getting hit with fines. That's not a position I want to be in.

And then covers of songs add an entire extra layer of headache. Oy.

These two issues have resulted in me not circulating certain tapes. When asked by fellow concert goers where I upload or if I can send them a copy directly, I politely respond with "if the tape comes out good and there are no copyright issues such as cover songs, then I will upload it to the archive." Some are bummed, some are confused, and but a surprisingly large percentage are totally on board with it. However, given your description above, this does not seem to have been the interaction you had. So YMMV, obviously.
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby playingdead » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:09 am

Royalty definitions:

A payment to an owner for the use of property, especially patents, copyrighted works, franchises or natural resources. A royalty payment is made to the legal owner of a property, patent, copyrighted work or franchise by those who wish to make use of it for the purposes of generating revenue or other such desirable activities. In most cases, royalties are designed to compensate the owner for the asset's use, and are legally binding.

Royalties are often expressed as a percentage of the revenues obtained using the owner's property, but can be negotiated to meet the specific needs of an arrangement. The use of royalties is common in situations where an inventor or original owner chooses to sell their product to a third party in exchange for royalties from the future revenues it may generate.

If the music is not being sold, the percentage of profit on a profit of zero would be nothing. Any performance venue is typically already paying ASCAP an annual fee for having covers of songs performed there. Aside from not having permission from the artist to record -- which did not apply to the Dead in later years, or DSO, to my knowledge -- I don't see any argument for not sharing copies of the music which you were granted permission to record, as long as it is free.

I'm sure you could wind up sideways with someone over this, but it seems unlikely and most certainly would not pertain to DSO, as they own no copyright to any of the music they perform.
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby RiverRat » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:32 am

Actually... According to Harry Fox Agency, you need a mechanical license even if you do not charge:

Do I Need a Mechanical License?


If you are manufacturing and distributing copies of a song which you did not write, and you have not already reached an agreement with the song's publisher, you need to obtain a mechanical license. This is required under U.S. Copyright Law, regardless of whether or not you are selling the copies that you made.

You do not need a mechanical license if you are recording and distributing a song you wrote yourself, or if the song is in the public domain. If you are not sure if the song you are looking to license is in the public domain, and therefore does not require license authority, we suggest you use the search on www.pdinfo.com.



I do not think there has been a single instance where HFA has gone after a taper or trader for distribution without having a mechanical license. But it is possible that it could happen.
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby mgbills » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:43 pm

Wow...the stuff you didn't know about taping!

Vic....I knew cool dudes were out there...I had a bunch of "Go see that guy over there"...and just missed him experiences. I knew that it could be done, because I knew guys who had 100's. My luck was just poor.

Perhaps the Universe knew I'd just OCD the whole thing. Damn Universe couldn't stop me...I became obscessed anyway.

Interesting thread.
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Re: Question for the Tapers

Postby jlg327 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:07 pm

RiverRat, thanks for the assist.

Vic, you're not wrong about the common definition and understanding of royalties. However, the problem is that even the definition has qualifying language in it like "or other such desirable activities," "in most cases," "are often expresssed...but can be negotiated to meet the specific needs of an arrangement," "the use is common," - all of these provide "outs" for alternative situations, and while copyright law itself is enough to give you a headache, copyright law as it pertains to music will make you throw up your hands and say "screw it, I'm just gonna go play guitar!"

As I said, I had previously written a long post which went into detail about this, but I lost it to the internet gods when i tried to upload it. I'd be happy to repost something similar if people are interested in seeing it, but I don't want to flood the forum unnecessarily.
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