intonation question

intonation question

Postby Winterland » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:11 pm

Hope everyone is having a great day! I have a quick question. I am trying to adjust the intonation on my
guitar. I can't seem to get two strings (low e and G) in tune. Can other issues cause this situation? can it be in the relief in the neck? The two notes are sharp.The bridge is a strat type.
Any thoughts or suggestions.
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Re: intonation question

Postby waldo041 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:33 pm

A common problem when using the jerry string height setup with a traditional strat bridge. There are 2 solutions, 1. Replace the bridge and move it a little less then a 1/4" away from the neck or enough to allow for the distance needed on the low and g strings. or 2. Lower your string height.

Pretty big clue as to why Jerry would have replaced his bridge on Alligator.

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Re: intonation question

Postby hippieguy1954 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:21 am

waldo041 wrote:A common problem when using the jerry string height setup with a traditional strat bridge. There are 2 solutions, 1. Replace the bridge and move it a little less then a 1/4" away from the neck or enough to allow for the distance needed on the low and g strings. or 2. Lower your string height.

Pretty big clue as to why Jerry would have replaced his bridge on Alligator.

~waldo


+1 the 1/4" works like a charm.

Also, this bridge gets the right string angle after the saddles. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_ta ... ridge.html
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Re: intonation question

Postby TI4-1009 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:36 am

And a possible reason Irwin went with the harmonica bridge on Tiger- lot's of room for saddle travel.
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Re: intonation question

Postby Pete B. » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:05 am

You can take the springs off of the bridge screws for those strings. That will buy you the distance you need to have high action and intonation, although I have not confirmed 7/64's at the 12th fret myself.
I have guys telling me that that in their professional guitar builder opinion, 7/64th's at the 12th fret is not what Jerry used.
They are telling me that it would cause string height at the 24th to be 1/4", and are saying that the online info is in error, and that they think 7/64'ths is actually what Jerry had at the 24th fret.

What do you think, Waldo?
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Re: intonation question

Postby waldo041 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:52 am

That Brawer 7/64" or .1094 has to be referring to the high e string. The .030 he has is basically what we measured for the high e string at the 1st on rosebud, bolt and top hat. Next time I have his tb500 #12 in my hands I will take it's measurements, but recall it being really similar. At the 24th you should have an 1/8th / .125 of an inch, no way it should be 1/4 inch unless it has no neck angle. But that height would be off anyway. For a strat you may need to swap in saddles that will allow for the height adjustment needed as well. Luckily we have taken actual measurements of a couple of the guitars. The truth about his string height lies on my rosebud page. And when done on a strat will require the bridge to be moved to intonate correctly.

~waldo
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Re: intonation question

Postby waldo041 » Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:37 pm

I just measured my moriarty tiger strings heights, and they match what I have on my rosebud page.

1st Fret
3/64" (.046") Low E
1/32" (.031") High E

24th Fret
1/8" (.125") Low E
1/8" (.125") High E

with these measurements the 12th fret measures 6/64" (.093") on both the High and Low E strings. so I cannot imagine 1/64th added to that 6/64" at the 12th would add an entire 1/8" to the already 1/8" at the 24th fret. In my minion opinion the measurements Brawer took from Tiger are really not that significantly different then that of Rosebud, Bolt or TopHat. It is also my opinion that it is definitely a part of the equation in seeking the elusive Jerry Tone. Fast, low action necks do not produce the sustain or clarity that having the action higher produces.

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Re: intonation question

Postby TI4-1009 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:02 am

waldo041 wrote: Fast, low action necks do not produce the sustain or clarity that having the action higher produces. ~waldo


Why is that???

All measuments unfretted, right?
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Re: intonation question

Postby strumminsix » Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:57 am

hippieguy1954 wrote:Also, this bridge gets the right string angle after the saddles. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_ta ... ridge.html

One word of advice, if you have OCD avoid this bridge. Those little rollers adjust spacing between springs. So every setup you will likely adjust and re-adjust. It's driving my batty :? :? :? But I do love the look, feel, playability of it. Not gonna lie.

waldo041 wrote: Fast, low action necks do not produce the sustain or clarity that having the action higher produces.

IMO you need to add the word "usually" to that claim. I've watched blues guys with low action and smooth, yet sharp touch, get sustain and clarity for days. Many rockers too. I do agree, however, that Jerry did have the a great recipe for sustain & clarity: high action + arched fingers with tip on top of string + rigid pick attack.
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Re: intonation question

Postby waldo041 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:59 am

TI4-1009 - String vibration i believe is the answer. Lower height = tighter string / higher action = looser string

Strummin - I would agree on "for the most part". I agree that there are some well made guitars that sweet spot could be in the lower action, but raising the action "for the most part" will bring out more of the note or harmonic content of it. I suppose usually would work as well. :P

Here is a write up from Gibson on the subject.
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/F ... -2012.aspx

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Re: intonation question

Postby Pete B. » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:35 am

So what should we shoot for for 12th fret string height on a common Strat with regard to Intonatability, for Jerry tone?
7/64th's is basically 1/8".
6/64ths=3/32nds...
Just take the springs off the E and G, dial 'em all the way back, and set Intonation with the string height adjustment, and measure that?
Do we need to shim the neck to a better angle?
Is there already a known Jerry Strat setup BKM (best known method) somewhere?
I'm thinkin' It's easy to do the electronics, but the Setup is just as key.
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Re: intonation question

Postby waldo041 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:07 am

Pete,

I used 6/64" to show it up against the 7/64, I do know that it is 3/32" thanks for clarifying that. A strat is a 25 1/2" scale guitar like Jerry's guitars. You would set the string heights up exactly as they are shown. Use the 1st fret measurement and rosebuds 3/32" 12 fret measurement. Your 22nd fret should end up just under or around an 1/8".

~waldo
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Re: intonation question

Postby TI4-1009 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:14 am

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Re: intonation question

Postby mgbills » Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:14 pm

You are also talking about an incline plane. If the nut is too low, the action at the 22nd will be unplayable. So if you intend to leave a stock nut, and not screw around endlessly with the height & taper...forget it. Precision at the nut will dictate precision at the 22nd & 24th. Let's assume that we use 0.030". For me that's right at the edge of playable on F's & Bb's.
I will also add that I love the enhanced string dynamics & tone added by the action change.

When I spoke with Matt Moriarty on this, he stated plainly that his impression of Jerry's guitars that he's held and measured was that they "were not extreme in any way". 1/8" at the 24th is not high action. This is what is shown on Waldo's Rosebud tab. And that his guitars were completely playable. I think every thing already pointed out is pretty cool. All hitting around a central point.

Let's assume for a moment that there is no nut. Dropping out the 0.030", and percieving the strings as an incline plane. The string angle (using SAS geometric theorem) would dictate that at 19.125" (Distance from nut to the 24th), the angle would only be 0.28 degrees. Pretty flat. That is also assuming that one drops a vertical bisection down from the saddles...and ignoring neck relief, of which the necessity for which is tempered by the advanced string height.

What would the height be at the 22nd (or at 18.344")? Using our calculated string angle we come up with 0.090. Now we add back our nut height for the block at the bottom and we're at 0.120".

We're talking pretty freaking flat. Sooooo....why all of this ....

In my opinion...the 7/64ths action is doable...almost. As Pete B. states, you can pull the saddle springs. Axematers Ebay sells a semi-Feitonized brass nut which also helps. Harry is great to work with.

But the real kicker, is that stretch of the string at the 5th and the 17th. The further you depress the string, the more the scale length is changed. It is very difficult to get anything other than a few cents sharp when depressing the strings at the 5th & 17th. You are effectively changing the scale length by that string height ...which is always true, but in this case it's a bit much. I've found the intonation to be great open & at the 12th. I definately prefer 3/32".

But then...guitars aren't really designed to be in perfect intonation at the 5th & 17th...that's just physics. Unless of course you just play at the 5th & 17th, and never play an open C chord.

One day I'll have to play with the geometry on an augmented neck angle, but logically it only seems to make sense (to me) with a harmonica type bridge....not a Strat style bridge.

Sorry for the long-windedness. The logic would have been more linear if I weren't missappropriating time from work.
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p.s...Waldo...Completely agree. The Rosebud specs are more complete, and make the whole change infinitely easier to intonate.
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Re: intonation question

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:52 am

waldo041 wrote:Here is a write up from Gibson on the subject.
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/F ... -2012.aspx

~waldo


From the Gibson atricle:

"The old set-up rule that you “get your strings as low as you can without buzzing” seems to make perfect sense. Set up to that criteria, however, while your strings might not buzz noticeably, their vibrational arc is more than likely still inhibited by the proximity of the frets."

"If low action floats your boat, great, but it’s worth knowing that there’s a wealth of tone hiding in that thin slice of air between string and fingerboard."

I'm still unclear about the bottom line on what creates the "better tone". Is it just that you can vibrate the string harder/more without the risk of buzzing on the frets? Other than that there doesn't seem to be any magic in having the string located farther from the fretboard. Am I missing something??
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