speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby mk-ultra » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:49 pm

i have a new fender blues deluxe.the speaker is a stock eminance"fender special design".it sounds a little better after breaking it in "about 50 hours".the amp itself seems very clean but i'm looking for a speaker to bring out the best in this amp,and jerry tone of course.i'm considering eminance commonwealth or cann rex,or something by weber.the amp is 40 watts.please help me out. should i consider some kind of jensen?i'm not considering jbl e120 because you can only get used ones.
mk-ultra
Vince
Vince
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby eric » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:16 pm

I asked nearly the same exact question a ways back. Had a BDRI , thought (and still think) it was a totally sweet amp. I would have loved to keep it . But at the end of the day , I ended up with the whole SMS- 2x12 K120 route. And now there's no second guessing. Just something to consider . If you plan it out now , like really map out what it's gonna take to get to the grail, you'll save yourself tons of time and money in the long run . Like I said, just something to consider.

Anyway, if you're looking for new, I think the emi commonwealth has this "firmness" or "tightness" to it that sounds sweetly JBL jerryish.

But ,I bet at least 90% of the guys around these parts are using "used" speakers.. It's the beauty of eBay . A used K120 in good shape will run about 125 ish. If it sucks, you return it . If you are indeed searching for even close to Jer, or good clean fender-jbl tone in general , then it's a must have . Its in the top 5 of things you need to get in the ballpark. 2c
eric
710 ashbury
710 ashbury
 
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:00 am
Location: CT / RI

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby ccw3432 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Consider a JBL K120. There's plenty of good used ones out there. It's worth the hunt. E120 if you don't mind the extra weight. JBL=oh ya, that's it!
User avatar
ccw3432
Billy
Billy
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:11 pm
Location: Three Rivers, CA

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby hippieguy1954 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:58 am

I've never been able to get the same brightness and clarity out of any other speaker than the JBL E120's or Beyma Liberty 8's in Fender or Fender/style amps.
Jim

First show: 1973
Last show: 1994
User avatar
hippieguy1954
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:29 pm
Location: Upstate, NY

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby Jon S. » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:34 am

I would not recommend this amp for Jerry tones due to its design (if it truly sounds "very clean" to you, either your definition of clean differs from mine or you're playing it just at low volumes). A Hot Rod Deluxe would get you closer. If you want details on the circuitry and component specifics that lead me to this recommendation, let me know, I posted them a while back elsewhere and can dig them up.

Re: the speaker, the stock Special Design Eminence that Fender uses in several amps is actually not, in my view, a bad speaker at all, it's just that apparently to increase profits Fender buys them by the boatload and throws them into multiple amps, some of which just aren't good matches for the speaker as is true for many speakers and amps. But in the Blues Deluxe, one of which I owned for several years before it was gutted and rebuilt it into a tweed bassman/brownface mash, my personal view is it's fine. If you really want to change it, by all means, but don't feel like you have to.
Last edited by Jon S. on Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby Jon S. » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:37 am

Ah, it was easy to find. Here you go. Credit to Steve Dallman. Bottom line is the Blues Deluxe, as its name denotes, was specifically designed to not stay clean. I really do think the HRD is a better choice for Jerry tones but that's me.

HOT ROD VS BLUES DELUXE/DEVILLE

The first stages are classic Fender except the BD uses a 22uf cathode bias cap while the HR uses a larger 47uf, which will create a bit more low end.

Coupling cap next is .01BD Vs .022 in HRD. Still a little more low end in the HR. The bright switch in the BD is next. This is a non-standard Fender design, which bypasses a 100k resistor with a 750pf cap. As the 100k resistor is attached to the 250k-volume control, it is only effective in clean mode. The drive control in the HR is between the first and second stage.

The second stage is unbypassed in both amps. In the HR the bright switch is a .068 cathode bypass cap that is non-functioning in drive mode.

The tone stack follows the second stage. They are identical except the HR uses a 130k mid slope resistor, while the BD is 100k. This will create a little less low end in the HR.

The drive control precedes the 3rd stage in the BD, a standard Fender bypassed gain stage. The 3rd stage is used in both clean and drive in the BD.

In the HR the 3rd and 4th stages are used in drive only. This tube is unbypassed. In More drive a 1uf-bypass cap is switched in on the 3rd stage and a 22uf bypass cap is switched in on the 4th stage. (The 4th stage is not used in the BD, but is just waiting to be modded in.)

Note on bypassing. The gain in a tube stage is set by 3 components, the plate resistor, (typically 100k in Fenders, larger for more gain) the cathode resistor, (typically 1.5k in Fenders, smaller for more gain) and a bypass cap that bypasses the cathode resistor. The cathode cap is not always used but when it is, it will increase gain in different frequency ranges. 22uf will increase gain across the entire guitar spectrum. Smaller will only raise gain in higher frequencies.

The master for the drive channel follows in both amps. From there the amps are nearly identical, except the HR has somewhat fuller reverb due to the design of the reverb return. (The reverb circuit and the effects loop are solid state.) The HR has an extension speaker jack that uses the 4-ohm speaker tap on the output transformer. The BD has this tap but it is not used (but could be added by a tech.)

In general these amps are similar. The BD will not stay as clean at higher volumes due to the 3rd stage always being active. The HR has “improved” distortion (drive) with “more drive” added. The HR has fuller reverb and an extension speaker jack. Both are good designs with plenty of classic Fender tone.

May I add that improvements can be made to the Blues. The earliest Blues Deville's used the 2nd stage of V2 as a cathode follower just before the PI. In all but the earliest, the 2nd half of V2 isn't used. This can be modded into the drive channel for huge improvement. (See the Blues Deluxe mod in the Technical section at Duncan Amp Pages...)

The reverb can be improved by clipping C50. Bias adjust can be easily added.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby ccw3432 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:07 am

I have a Hot Rod Deluxe with an E120 in it. The E120 helps a ton to get it sounding more Jerry like, but it still can't quite get there. It can sound good, especially in a band situation, but it never sounds quite there to my ears. It can't even come close to my SMS/Mc250, which I much prefer even at lower volumes. I would like to try a Deluxe Reverb with a K120 in it.
User avatar
ccw3432
Billy
Billy
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:11 pm
Location: Three Rivers, CA

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby Jon S. » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:45 am

How does your HRD sound when you run your SMS directly into the Power Amp In jack? That will tell you how much of the difference between your SMS-McI and HRD is due to the SMS versus the McI. I won't tell you to prefer the HRD's power amp over the McI but I'm comfortable saying that at relatively lower volumes the HRD will be, while not identical to a Twin Reverb output stage, definitely in the BF Fender ballpark. You may hear a huge difference in your practice room but there are plenty of people using HRDs and Devilles for all kinds of music that work with TRs, too, and (as I believe you'll agree) if you can't gig in a small to medium club with an SMS into the Power Amp In of a HRD it ain't the amp. But I really would like to learn how you hear your SMS into your HRD's power stage. Thanks!
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby ccw3432 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:30 pm

I gave it a try Jon. We're going a little off topic on this thread but it's good stuff and anyone can reel it back in at any time if we're getting too far out there. So I tried the SMS directly into the HRD amp. It sounded really good at low volumes. It broke up pretty quickly as I increased the volume but no more than the HRD does when used as a stand-alone. I liked the tone and it's definitely getting into the J zone in the lower volumes, but there's not a lot of headroom. It sounds pretty nice when it's just starting to break up too. I can hear the characteristics of the HRD tube amp in there but it sounds nice. It's just a little bouncier with rounded edges than the Mac if that makes sense. The HRD is a good amp but it's not a clean machine when you start turning it up. That's part of what I like about it for some music styles. Maybe different tube choices or some mods would change that. It's nothing like a Twin of course for clean headroom and I haven't had much experience with a Deluxe Reverb but would be very interested to know how it comapres to the HRD for headroom. I realize we're not exactly comparing like items here but I think these comparisons are still interesting and helpful for the neverending tone quest. Chris
User avatar
ccw3432
Billy
Billy
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:11 pm
Location: Three Rivers, CA

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby mk-ultra » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:37 am

a special thanks for the replies.i'm new at using amplified instruments,ive been playing acoustic for about 13 years and recently plugged in.i got a blues deluxe 40 watt,and an epi tribute plus it has gibson classic 57 pickups in it.i play alot of blues and vintage rnr[chuck berry style]music.and this combination of guitar and amp is good even for playing stuff like dark star and cosmic charlie.i just tweak the tone controls for different songs,and the pickup selecter.i usually keep the amp on the clean channel and the amp stays relatively clean up until about 5 [volume],at 5 it is loud enough to hear clearly over the drummer.the amp has an external speaker jack,there i'm going to build a cabnet with a jbl e or k,or an eminance commonwealth.question?does anyone think that using a higher wattage speaker will keep the amp cleaner at even higher volume?

until i get my twin,this is the amp i'm working with.and it is a very nice amp.i was amazed at how alive this amp is.its very touch sensitive allowing my playing to create alot of the aspects of my tone.even when i get my twin and make all the jerry mods i'll keep this amp for my personal tone.

and i do love to talk to other deadheads about playing guitar,thats why i like this forum,you guys have given me alot of ideas,and you guys are totally with it.--drew
mk-ultra
Vince
Vince
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby Jon S. » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:00 am

ccw3432 wrote:I gave it a try Jon. We're going a little off topic on this thread but it's good stuff and anyone can reel it back in at any time if we're getting too far out there. So I tried the SMS directly into the HRD amp. It sounded really good at low volumes. It broke up pretty quickly as I increased the volume but no more than the HRD does when used as a stand-alone. I liked the tone and it's definitely getting into the J zone in the lower volumes, but there's not a lot of headroom. It sounds pretty nice when it's just starting to break up too. I can hear the characteristics of the HRD tube amp in there but it sounds nice. It's just a little bouncier with rounded edges than the Mac if that makes sense. The HRD is a good amp but it's not a clean machine when you start turning it up. That's part of what I like about it for some music styles. Maybe different tube choices or some mods would change that. It's nothing like a Twin of course for clean headroom and I haven't had much experience with a Deluxe Reverb but would be very interested to know how it comapres to the HRD for headroom. I realize we're not exactly comparing like items here but I think these comparisons are still interesting and helpful for the neverending tone quest. Chris

Hi again, Chris. A little off topic is OK. To paraphrase Bilbo, ""It's a dangerous business, Chris, posting on a public forum. You step onto the internet, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to." :lol:

Here are some things you could try with your HRD (and BTW, if you find the HRD to be "not a clean machine as you start turning it up" - the Blues Deluxe is significantly dirtier than the HRD - that's why I told the OP right away, the BD is not the best possible amp choice for Jerry tones at anything but lower volumes):

Image

(1) Confirm that you have true 6L6 power tubes. I believe the HRDs all do but some of the BDs shipped with 5881s which are less powerful and break up earlier. (In my handbuilt tweed/brownface Bandmaster mash I referenced earlier, for example, I clear 40W before clipping with 6L6s but I'm now on purpose getting just over 30W with 5881s).

(2) Replace your 12AX7 V1 preamp tube with a slightly lower gain 5771.
http://www.thetubestore.com/Gain-Factor
http://www.justinholton.com/hotrod/faq.html#preamp

(3) Replace your 12AX7 phase inverter tube with a 12AT7.
http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting. ... verter.pdf

BTW, you might enjoy this all of this FAQ on your amp: http://www.justinholton.com/hotrod/faq.html (e.g.,
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby Maybeck09 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:51 am

I put a Cannibus Rex in mine. Its sounds sweet and light years better than the original Eminence. Mine is an original '93 or so. A speaker change and better tubes goes a long way with this amp. Good luck.
Maybeck09
Pigpen
Pigpen
 
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:57 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby mk-ultra » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:21 am

thanks maybeck09 i was considering the c rex or commonwealth. :peas:
mk-ultra
Vince
Vince
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:07 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby Jon S. » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:12 am

And I'll add one last comment and then shut up: IF Jerry tones are truly your end point, think through your decision carefully to pay the extra for one of those new speaker choices for this amp. A better speaker can be the single most beneficial upgrade to any amp but at the same time, it won't change the amp's essential character. Do what you like but I'm just sharing my personal experience: in every situation where I've invested any significant amount of time and money trying to change and amp into what it is not and was not designed originally to be, I've regretted afterwards not having simply sold it at the outset and put the proceeds towards what I really wanted from the beginning and that's what I do now for myself. Jon out!
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
User avatar
Jon S.
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1505
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:34 pm

Re: speaker for fender blues deluxe reissue

Postby cmc64 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:33 am

Jon S. wrote:
(2) Replace your 12AX7 V1 preamp tube with a slightly lower gain 5771.
http://www.thetubestore.com/Gain-Factor
http://www.justinholton.com/hotrod/faq.html#preamp

(3) Replace your 12AX7 phase inverter tube with a 12AT7.
http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting. ... verter.pdf


This post goes a bit more of-topic (a different amp) but the main point remains.

My Mesa MK IIA head desperately needs to be re-tubed and the information you provided has answered a few of my questions regarding choice of tubes. The legend on the amp shows the location of each tube - V1 (12AX7 or Fetron), V2, V3, V4 (all 12AX7's), V5 and then on to the four 6L6's. The legend indicates that either a 12AX7 or a 12AT7 may be used in V5, which is the phase inverter. I have been trying to figure out which tubes to use - I want to make "smart" choices before I start blowing through wads of cash and while I am still not sure exactly which type (brand, model, etc...) of 12AX7 to use the importance of the 12AT7 in V5 is now clear.

Thank you for the info. It was just what I was looking for.
User avatar
cmc64
Billy
Billy
 
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:04 pm

Next

Return to Jerry Tone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron