Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby lunasparks » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:45 pm

mijknahs wrote:Pretty sure Jerry's pickups had the south coil active when split.


That would certainly make me feel less insane! I don't know why I have it my mind that he had north coil active. I wonder who knows for sure?

EDIT: I've been looking through old threads. Looks like I'm using "north" and "south" sort of incorrectly, as this refers to polarity. So bear in mind that I know nothing about wiring. By north I mean closest to neck and south closest to bridge. Old threads seem to confirm via Waldo that Jerry had split coil closest to the neck active; my original setup. I knew I'd read that before. Still, I think I prefer the twang moving toward the bridge vs. roundness toward the neck. Still chasing that tone....
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby eric » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:52 pm

Q : Is the pickup location ( and distance from front of the nut to the middle of the middle pickup) affected by scale ? Or is it constant?

IOW, In a shorter scale guitar, would the measurement from nut be proportional to scale. Or would you want to place it exactly at 22 1/4 ?

And no , I don't think one can nail it 100 (obvious reasons) but there are plenty of people out there who are so close it's not even funny. And that's good for me. All proper gear gives people incredibly beautiful tone regardless of how close you come to "nailing it" . It's such a great standard to chase. Fender clean (SMS) into JBLs ,LOUD LOUD, is so butter.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby TRG » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:47 am

lunasparks wrote:
mijknahs wrote:Pretty sure Jerry's pickups had the south coil active when split.


That would certainly make me feel less insane! I don't know why I have it my mind that he had north coil active. I wonder who knows for sure?

EDIT: I've been looking through old threads. Looks like I'm using "north" and "south" sort of incorrectly, as this refers to polarity. So bear in mind that I know nothing about wiring. By north I mean closest to neck and south closest to bridge. Old threads seem to confirm via Waldo that Jerry had split coil closest to the neck active; my original setup. I knew I'd read that before. Still, I think I prefer the twang moving toward the bridge vs. roundness toward the neck. Still chasing that tone....


How difficult/intrusive was it to flip that pickup around so that the south coil is active when split? I'm considering trying that on my wolf, but don't want to mess anything up electrically in the process.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mijknahs » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:44 am

TRG wrote:
lunasparks wrote:
mijknahs wrote:Pretty sure Jerry's pickups had the south coil active when split.


That would certainly make me feel less insane! I don't know why I have it my mind that he had north coil active. I wonder who knows for sure?

EDIT: I've been looking through old threads. Looks like I'm using "north" and "south" sort of incorrectly, as this refers to polarity. So bear in mind that I know nothing about wiring. By north I mean closest to neck and south closest to bridge. Old threads seem to confirm via Waldo that Jerry had split coil closest to the neck active; my original setup. I knew I'd read that before. Still, I think I prefer the twang moving toward the bridge vs. roundness toward the neck. Still chasing that tone....


How difficult/intrusive was it to flip that pickup around so that the south coil is active when split? I'm considering trying that on my wolf, but don't want to mess anything up electrically in the process.


Sorry. I totally meant to say that it's the coil closest to the neck (i.e. the "north" coil).

The easiest way is to just flip the pickup upside down. There should be enough wire to do this. The other way is to wire the mini toggle switch so it flips between the two coils.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby lunasparks » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:56 pm

TRG wrote:How difficult/intrusive was it to flip that pickup around so that the south coil is active when split? I'm considering trying that on my wolf, but don't want to mess anything up electrically in the process.


TRG - Very easy. I opened up the back control cavity to make sure there was enough pickup wire to feed up in the pickup area, pushed up as much could then closed up the back. Flipped guitar over, removed jackplate, unscrewed what I need to and turned the pickup around. Biggest pain for me and my buddy was getting the pickups back together because of the springs. If you have some roach clips you could compress the spring and clip it so it's easier to get the pickup screws started. Good luck!
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby barefootdave » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:27 pm

You mean "north coil" doesn't mean the coil closest to the North Pole? Now I am confused....
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mijknahs » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:43 pm

barefootdave wrote:You mean "north coil" doesn't mean the coil closest to the North Pole? Now I am confused....


It requires a compass and a map...
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby TRG » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:51 am

lunasparks wrote:
TRG wrote:How difficult/intrusive was it to flip that pickup around so that the south coil is active when split? I'm considering trying that on my wolf, but don't want to mess anything up electrically in the process.


TRG - Very easy. I opened up the back control cavity to make sure there was enough pickup wire to feed up in the pickup area, pushed up as much could then closed up the back. Flipped guitar over, removed jackplate, unscrewed what I need to and turned the pickup around. Biggest pain for me and my buddy was getting the pickups back together because of the springs. If you have some roach clips you could compress the spring and clip it so it's easier to get the pickup screws started. Good luck!


Cool, thanks!
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mgbills » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:54 am

Scale length matters to a considerable degree. The 24-3/4" Gibson scale will always be a little warmer/fatter than the 25-1/2" in a Strat or Tele. Greater length = Greater tension. So the Fender types are a little brighter, and a little harder to bend. So, depending on your build & the concentration of pickup ...you can only get them closer, but not exactly to Waldo's specs on a guitar with a shorter scale. A Strat can be dead on.

Image

vs

Image

I'll have to measure the LP, but it's a bit warmer regardless...again due to scale length.

My belief is that some of the difference is mitigated by the restriction created by the bridge. To state this differently...the strings move less as you approach the nut or the bridge because of the mechanical constriction. Think...play nearer the bridge to "Twang" it up. Play nearer the neck to "Warm" it up. I think my point is ...in a guitar with shorter scale length some additional brightness can be achieved by where you play in relation to the bridge. But that may be impractical for many players as a consistent strategy.

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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby eric » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:17 pm

MGBILLS,

That was exactly the info I was looking for.

I was debating pickup placement options for the best possible tonal charateristics in different scale lengths. Not purely foe jer-dom . Specifically , how close would the south split single coil of a neck humbucker (of a shorter scale guitar) be vs the middle split position in a strat scale . And now finding out north really isn't north , it makes sense . Jon S had some sort of prs animation ( in another thread) showing the difference of what I'm trying to figure out. This info fills in blanks , and then some . Thanks
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby lunasparks » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:58 am

Still on the search for that '84 tone! :smile: Below clip is with my Boogie Mark IIa, recently upgraded/modded by Joe Martin (he fixed up the anemic Boogie reverb..clip here is reverb on 3.5..as well as a bunch of other things I don't understand). Anyway, I'm hearing some of that splatty grit here...even though I'm sure I could dial in a little better with more time & effort. Commentary & critique invited. Not just exactly perfect but my Boogie definitely sounds better than ever!

https://soundcloud.com/lunasparks/2013-03-15-black-peter-tone

Moriarty Wolf --> Boogie MKiia (preamp out) --> MC2105 --> JBL E120

A Black Peter from the era: http://archive.org/details/gd1984-04-23.sbd.walker-scotton.miller.105927.flac16
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mgbills » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:13 am

eric...
Another cool thing about the Waldo/Irwin/Jerry pickup configuration is that is moves the neck pickup off the node. This has the effect of livening up the neck pickup...making it less dead sounding. (More Dead sounding, instead of dead sounding :lol: )

luna...
The only way I can approximate that grit is with my '67 Deluxe Reverb with a D-120. There is a line where it gets gritty, just before the 6V6's get too creamy. A little bratty. Still loud in a small space. The efficiency of the JBL seems to make even the Deluxe loud.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby lunasparks » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Just thought I'd make the below available for interested parties. I went through the 1983 Club Front Help-->Slip rehearsal and edited together clips of Jerry's tone, trying to focus on the parts where he's coming through very clearly and mostly alone. Such a focused, present and taut tone! :shock: Anyway, I'm planning to use this clip to help me have a good, recorded reference tone (a la the Touch clip Vic made available a while back). I enabled downloading so you should be able to save it for yourself.

https://soundcloud.com/lunasparks/2013-03-21-1983-club-front

Enjoy!
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby Jon S. » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:08 am

Excellent and helpful, thanks!

Thought I'd also mention it's simple to throw in a 3-way minitoggle so you can have either coil of your 'bucker active (I did on my J-caster).
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby Pete B. » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:22 am

Jon S. wrote:Excellent and helpful, thanks!

Thought I'd also mention it's simple to throw in a 3-way minitoggle so you can have either coil of your 'bucker active (I did on my J-caster).


That is a good idea, Jon.
Thanks for the recording motif, Lunasparks. I enjoyed that listen.
Hey Jon, Luna has a recording in there labeled "Touch Edit". Give it a listen and see if it sounds familiar.
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