Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby rugger » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:44 pm

...and the thin man spits!

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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mkaufman » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:28 am

OMG...that may be the heaviest I've ever seen him.

Sad.

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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby Bear62 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:33 pm

Those stickers were an awful. Buzzkill at shows and are still a Buzzkill!

My favorite tiger tone is still Stanley Theater 12-01-1979 set 2. It is a lot of fun listening to the SBD recording and comparing them w/ the AUD and matrix recordings.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mkaufman » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:10 pm

I was at that show, and the night before, and the night before.

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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby tigerstrat » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:55 pm

Here's a pretty cool extreme-FOB recording. Jim Wise was really close to the stage for this FANTASTIC show, too many highlights to list, and pretty much the Holy Grail tone for me: http://archive.org/details/gd1981-09-12.senn421.unknown.sirmick.23658.sbeok.shnf
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mijknahs » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:59 pm

tigerstrat wrote:Here's a pretty cool extreme-FOB recording. Jim Wise was really close to the stage for this FANTASTIC show, too many highlights to list, and pretty much the Holy Grail tone for me: http://archive.org/details/gd1981-09-12.senn421.unknown.sirmick.23658.sbeok.shnf


I love those Greek '81 shows. I always thought that it sounded like Garcia had his tone control rolled back some.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mijknahs » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:06 pm

lunasparks wrote:Camcorder audio makes it too tough to get a good feel for the underlying tone...


Here's the China/Rider from the same evening but recorded from someone's Zoom H2 from about where the camcorder was. A bit better sound quality than the camcorder mic.

http://ia700403.us.archive.org/5/items/ ... 102210.mp3
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby lunasparks » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:51 am

mijknahs wrote: Here's the China/Rider from the same evening but recorded from someone's Zoom H2 from about where the camcorder was. A bit better sound quality than the camcorder mic.

http://ia700403.us.archive.org/5/items/ ... 102210.mp3


I'll say it again: in terms of the 80s tone I lust after, I think you're closer than anybody I've heard! Nice job :cool:

What are you running in terms of preamp mods, power amp, etc. Are you able to get this tone with other guitars or just your Tiger? More to the point, how's it done?! :-)
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby Jon S. » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:53 am

I know I'm the weird one. I like virtually all of Garcia's tones. In fact, I especially like how they varied over time. Variety is the spice of life.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:48 am

No question that the tone so many of us are familiar with is the sound of Jerry's JBL being very close mic'd and with plenty of the character and color of a Sennheiser 421. We're not hearing nearly as much of the warmth and body of the cabinet as we are hearing the sound of the voice coil, paper, and metal dustcap of the speaker. The Sennheiser has a pretty strong presence boost at 4-5khz too. I've got a recording that was made in 1980 (I think) by Craig Rogers with a portable Uher reel-to-reel machine literally sitting on the stage at the Stone, tiny venue. He told me years ago that the mics were about 4-6' from Jerry's cabinet. You hear the raw, real tone that Jerry heard, and it's MUCH warmer, fuller, darker than the soundboard '80s tone we all know and love. This front-of-board 81 Greek link above is very much like the sound I have on this tape. When I can find a good way to upload and share this audio, I'll post it here somewhere. What it taught me is that there is a HUGE amount of warmth and body that comes with a 3-12 or 4-12 vertical, open-back cabinet. It makes that bass-on-zero tone setting totally work with plenty of body and fullness and with zero mud. I find that with a 1-12" cab that the Jerry tone settings don't exactly work, too small and thin.

I do hear him roll his tone back in the first part of the Bird Song solo, but most of what I'm hearing is tone wide open.

I saw Jerry many times and a few of them were right in front of him, front row where most of what I heard was his rig and less of the PA. I recall the JGB Greek '89 with Jimmy Cliff. I was front and center there. I remember it being a full and warm sound but the clear sparkle was always there if his tone knob was up. The tone coming off his rig was not as thin and crisp and treble emphasized as the boards and PA gave us.

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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mijknahs » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:19 am

lunasparks wrote:
mijknahs wrote: Here's the China/Rider from the same evening but recorded from someone's Zoom H2 from about where the camcorder was. A bit better sound quality than the camcorder mic.

http://ia700403.us.archive.org/5/items/ ... 102210.mp3



What are you running in terms of preamp mods, power amp, etc. Are you able to get this tone with other guitars or just your Tiger? More to the point, how's it done?! :-)


This gig had the old Twin with all the Waldo mods (maybe I still had the .1 and .047 caps for the tone stack). Going into an MC2300 into a 2x12 JBL E120 cab. Good question about the guitar because no, it only sounds like this with that guitar. People have come over to my house with their DiMarzio Super II modded strats and compared it with my "Tiger" and there is a big difference. So a lot of the sound IS the guitar. If I played my all mahogany SG through this rig it would sound a lot more like a late 60's / early 70's tone. So the guitar changes things up quite a bit.
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby lunasparks » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:10 am

mijknahs wrote:Good question about the guitar because no, it only sounds like this with that guitar. People have come over to my house with their DiMarzio Super II modded strats and compared it with my "Tiger" and there is a big difference. So a lot of the sound IS the guitar. If I played my all mahogany SG through this rig it would sound a lot more like a late 60's / early 70's tone. So the guitar changes things up quite a bit.


Okay, I'm going to hazard a little theory that's been brewing in my head for a few months now--this will shed some light on my question about the guitar. First, getting a Jerry modded preamp is key. Also, I think a hard-tail (and heavy?) guitar is essential. I've got this myself (more or less) with my rig: Moriarty Wolf-->SMS (JG mods)-->MC2105-->JBL E120s. But something still isn't quite doing it for me, at least in terms of getting that 80s Tiger tone.

Now, on my Wolf when I flip to the bridge pickup from the middle, it has a lot more quack and harmonic complexity to my ears--and seems to capture that Jerry clarity a bit better than my middle pup. That said, it's obviously too "bridge-y" to sound like the middle split. But I think Waldo posted something in another thread where he measured his Tiger replica's distance from the nut to the mid-point of the middle pup. His measurement of the distance was something like 1/2 or 3/4 inch further BACK (toward the bridge) than my guitar...I thought, hmm, maybe some of the recipe is simply accurately capturing the EXACT pickup placement of Tiger??? Now, I don't actual know these dimensions/distances but I bet somebody on this board has the data (paging Waldo!).

Recently, somebody told me, "No way. Moving the pickup back a half inch isn't going to make any noticeable difference in tone." But I wonder...given that I'm chasing some very small variables anyway, maybe that guy is wrong? Maybe that subtle harmonic complexity and almost "boxy" splat really can be tied back (at least to some degree) to the EXACT positioning of the pickups on Tiger relative to nut/bridge? I bet few if any strats or stock guitars get the pickup location to be just exactly perfect vis-a-vis Tiger.

Anyway, if we can get reliable dimensions then maybe I'll get a new pickup plate for my Wolf that gets the middle pup to deliver these dimensions and I'll put this theory to the test. Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws? Thoughts?
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby mijknahs » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:58 pm

lunasparks wrote: I've got this myself (more or less) with my rig: Moriarty Wolf-->SMS (JG mods)-->MC2105-->JBL E120s. But something still isn't quite doing it for me, at least in terms of getting that 80s Tiger tone.

Recently, somebody told me, "No way. Moving the pickup back a half inch isn't going to make any noticeable difference in tone." But I wonder...given that I'm chasing some very small variables anyway, maybe that guy is wrong? Maybe that subtle harmonic complexity and almost "boxy" splat really can be tied back (at least to some degree) to the EXACT positioning of the pickups on Tiger relative to nut/bridge?


First, do you think Garcia could get that exact mid 80's Tiger tone with Wolf? I don't think so. Different guitars. Garcia's sound changed when he went from Wolf to Tiger in '79 even though they had pretty much the same electronics. Although I think Wolf will sound more like Tiger than any lightweight guitar will.

Second, the exact placement of the pickup makes a big difference. I used to have my coil cuto switch wired so I could change which coil was the active single coil. It made a big difference to my ears. Also, when I had a modded PRS EG, the middle position was too far forward so I flipped the pickup over so the active coil was closer to the bridge. Placement make a difference and the easiest way to see this is to flip the pickup around (or have it wired so you can go back and forth).
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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby The Stag » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:09 pm

here is my shot at the 80s tone.

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Re: Really, can anyone actually nail this tone?

Postby Tennessee Jedi » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:06 pm

The Stag wrote:here is my shot at the 80s tone.


Excellent playing and tone !
:-)
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