Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby tigerstrat » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:39 am

waldo041 wrote:keep the twin, and put a master volume on it. a 250k audio pot inbetween the phase inverter, and 220k mix nodes should work just fine.

putting in a preamp tap and going with a mac solid state power amp is by far the better option with way more volume control.

~waldo


yep, feeding a Twin (or similar Fender) preamp signal to a quality SS power amp (I don't really buy that it needs to be a Mac) gets you consistently great sound at lower AND higher volumes than using as tube combo. It is more stuff to cart around that's for sure...
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby Smolder » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:23 am

tigerstrat wrote:
Smolder wrote:
Mosfed wrote:Ok - so I just saw that my JBL D-120 s are 8 ohm speakers and heads like the Fender Bandmaster are 4ohm heads. Am I shit out of luck or is there a work around?


your bandmaster can handle that mismatch just fine.

The impedance output of a transformer is not a constant. It is essential an aggregate number. Speakers are paired on that number so they can accommodate a range. Leo put a four ohm load in a bandmaster to match up with two eight ohm speakers wired in parallel in a 4 ohm bandmaster cabinet. But... he also put to jacks in parallel knowing that you might want to have two bandmaster cabs. Not all amps are built with the same sturdiness... but it's general considered safe to double, or half the load on a fender amp.


IOW there is no mismatch at all with driving the two 8ohm D-120's (in parallel, a 4ohm load) with the Bandmaster, which ideally sees a 4ohm load.



exactly... I read that as connecting a single 8 ohm speaker to a 4 ohm speaker jack. Otherwise there would be no mismatch.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby softmachine72 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:09 pm

Just got off the phone with the owner of http://www.circuitrix.com/ i was looking at doing a black face build. in that conversation he told me that the dual show man and other amps have the same pre amp circuit as the twin reverb and the main thing that determines power is tubes and transformer. give this guy a shout he was very helpful and spoke to me for about an hour.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby kkbriand » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:27 pm

Mosfed wrote:Hey there

So I am looking to buy a Fender amp, preferably blackface or silverface. Naturally the ideal is a Fender Twin. Especially with the various Garcia mods and the pair of JBL D-120/ I have .

My issue is that a Twin is just too loud. So yes I know you can drop two of the main output tubes to lower the wattage but I have heard that they are still loud as all hell.

So the dilemma becomes what will get me closer to that Garcia Sound:

- a Twin minus 2 tubes with A really quality attenuator like a Thd hot plate
Or
- a pro or deluxe reverb

Does anyone have experience with the same issue? What did you do? Experience with attenuators?

THANKS

Regardless you'll either need a preamp tap or a built in fx loop aka preamp send jack. There's a guy on ebay who sells awesome attenuators tailored for each manufacturer. Little box with volume knob and in and out jack>back into amp section or external. Tubes love to see a good Vol. knob no lower than 5 signal to get their full tonal response and warmth. 25 bucks and you can run your Vol. knob on 1 and get distortionless warmth and sparkle sound as if it were on 10. You can also split the output to fuel a combo and an external amp.
Remarkable tiny little box.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby strumminsix » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:44 pm

kkbriand wrote:Regardless you'll either need a preamp tap or a built in fx loop aka preamp send jack. There's a guy on ebay who sells awesome attenuators tailored for each manufacturer. Little box with volume knob and in and out jack>back into amp section or external. Tubes love to see a good Vol. knob no lower than 5 signal to get their full tonal response and warmth. 25 bucks and you can run your Vol. knob on 1 and get distortionless warmth and sparkle sound as if it were on 10. You can also split the output to fuel a combo and an external amp.
Remarkable tiny little box.

That box you describe is only a master volume in a box and requires an FX loop. It's only $2 worth of parts. It's like wiring your guitar volume knob into a hobby box with a pair of 1/4" jacks and plugging into an FX loop. I see it having a place for a small amp with and FX loop already but without a master volume.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby kkbriand » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:23 am

Wrong!!!! His product trademark name is called "The Volume Box" which is a full blown attenuator inside. Yes requires an FX loop send jack in your amp which is a pre amp tap factory built that sends all preamp tube signal . If you don't have a fx loop you will have to tap the pre yourself.eg.Vintage as topic describes. Just took mine apart and boy that's one hell of a volume knob in there. 4 stage circuit design before output. I'm pm'd the guy and u can also split the output and send back into the combo amp and another to an external eg. QSC<JBL Cab.
If you haven't tried I wouldn't knock cause this thing blew my mind . My amp's Vol was on around 1.5-2 late at night and cranked fully open the attenuator aka "Volume Box" fender model. The sound didn't go up a db but the tonal response was like the tubes were seeing full volume. You could really hear the pick pluckin the strings in the utmost tonal sensitivity. It also removes any hum or buzz coming from preamp and adds a nice sparkle. My Bamdmaster VM sounded like a modded 67 twin reverb.
Here's the description:
The Deluxe Metal Volume Box Attenuator for FENDER amps!
15000+ sold worldwide since 1998!!!
Brand new full moneyback satisfaction guarantee!!!
FREE US shipping!

I am the original Volume Box seller on EBAY, I have been selling them here since 1998 and you can see for yourself that I have well over 8500 sales with positive feedbacks. Don't risk buying a copycat product by some here today/gone tomorrow fly by night seller, I have seen COUNTLESS come and go over the years: they do not have my experience building, my contacts for top quality components at reasonable prices or my 10+ year Seller status. Simply put: Noone is making these products with better quality control, top notch components and the assurance of 10+ years of experience building them with the EBAY Seller stamp of approval and a moneyback satisfaction guarantee, thank you. -Carl
Carl's Custom Guitars original Volume Box lets you expand your amp's range of usable volume & dial in much more "open" & "driven tube" tones at lower/more manageable volumes (without driving your bandmates/neighbors/significant others crazy!). It adds another much more responsive audio taper volume control to the circuit of your amp by simply plugging into the effects loop, no mods required whatsoever and no danger of harming your amplifier. It solves the problem of an EXTREMELY touchy volume knob on your amp, you know what I mean: zero has no volume but 1 or 2 is already MUCH too loud. The Volume Box takes care of that with its nice smooth Audio Taper Control, DEFINITELY the most cost effective investment you can make for your amp, A great way to discover a whole new range of tones on your amplifier!
Simply plug The Volume Box into the effect loop on your amp (thats the preamp out and power amp in jacks, you need a series effects loop for this device, it does not go between amp and speaker) and turn the amp UP and then adjust the overall volume with the volume box...this allows you to get more of that wide open tube tone at nice safe levels, it really works great! Works specifically on all FENDER amps with a standard (series) effects loop!
A must have secret weapon every guitarist should have in their trick bag! Works great live, at home, in the studio, wherever! This box is made of of super strong cast aluminum, I use all quality components, very well made and absolutely WILL NOT HURT YOUR AMP! Yes you CAN still use your effects loop for other devices while using the Volume Box, just be sure to place the Volume Box last in the loop and everything will work just fine! Box is very simple to use, no batteries to change or anything like that, just plug and play!!! This is the best bang for the buck you will ever get for your amp! Cables not included, full moneyback satisfaction guarantee, thank you!
Please note: Carl's Custom Guitars is a one man operation, I make all of my products by hand, manage the store/shop, do all my own customer service as well as process, package and ship all items etc etc...I take pride in my customer communications, please be aware that many EBAY generated emails fall victim to spam filters and such these days so if my response never reached you this was most likely the case. Please be patient and give your a package a chance to reach you, you will receive your merchandise as quickly as I can make that happen and it will be well worth any short wait. I work very hard to build the best products that I possibly can and offer them to you at very affordable prices. I also have a moneyback satisfaction guarantee on my items so there is never, ever any reason to worry about any purchase from me, and I certainly appreciate your business. Thank you and enjoy!!!
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby strumminsix » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:36 am

Where am I wrong? BTW, names get trademarked not products. Those get patented. So that's a silly statement to even make.

You join this forum, resurrect a 3 month old thread, to talk up a product, then call me wrong for a product I've seen before.

LOL! I am guessing you are the seller of this product coming in as a user. We see that all the time here.

And what the hell does this mean, "Vintage as topic described"

No way are you gonna make me believe that this passive box is anything more than an Master Volume box. Sure, if you put some extra caps in there it could act like a passive tone control but that's not what an attenuator is supposed to be so then what's the point?!


For those wondering, read this thread and look at the pics: http://www.instituteofnoise.com/squier5 ... IC_ID=6882

Scroll down and you'll see what is likely inside this magic box being described here.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby hippieguy1954 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:45 am

I made one of those 25 yrs ago. Was my own idea. I didn't think it was anything real special. Just a volume control to use as a master volume.

Like strumminsix said, a few dollars worth of parts.
Jim

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Last show: 1994
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby kkbriand » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:00 am

As I said his product trade marked name is "The Volume Box" in the first sentence. My bandmaster VM has Jer sparkle with this little gizmo like it does when Vol. around 6-7. stumminsix why are you knocking me is an elite member on the site selling attenuators? So it went from a volume booster to a tone knob now because I mentioned the db's didn't rise when I cranked it. An attenuators job is to reduce to desired levels the volume of sound produced by the amplifier, without altering the quality of the tone that is being sought. Gonna post my 12ax7a freq's before and after this piece of crap 2 dollar device. This not a power soaker att.,nor is it a variac style. It is a power damper style which fully open up your PI tube as if volume were on a level to give just the right amount of signal to open it up before distortion levels then return the output to the exact Volume knob setting. The only resistor in this thing is the Pot. with no additional res. to ground on it and then there's a 2 inch wide spool of burgundy wire, and a bypass cap which I believe is only used to remove any interference and clean up the line out because it's a big yellow square that says .001 on it.
"why am I opening an ol thread?" I searched attenuators and this member's thread didn't end up with an answer. I'll post pictures of the guts later.
I thought you knew all the answers."What Vintage as topic describes mean???? That he doesn't a combo amp FX loop aka preamp tap send jack so he would have to tap it himself. No I'm not a seller and could care less about a 20 dollar sale.
You see this all the time? How about a guy whom built a SMS Classic JG clone after purchasing one for it's innards and design? God hate to see what happened to him if he posted here. Same size unit,you supply paint job and he used the bright switch as a reverb dwell because these remakes the reverb is slightly way over the top.
Actually I like to see what happens to me after this post and our little disagreement because your name is in red=boss.
Sorry didn't mean to offend u just tried to help a member on something I've been toggling with for a long time. I had a powerbrake and a hotplate and ditched them due to amp damage and detrimental outcomes they can cause to your pre section.
I message they seller to day to get a more detailed description.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby Smolder » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:07 am

Pure and simple this is not an attenuator. It's a master volume. Glad it works for you.

An attenuator lies between the output transformer and the speaker and uses resistors to reduce energy going to the speaker. Pretty simple concept. FWIW - there are a few 'attenuators' out there that area really re-amp solutions, so the misuse of the term is not unheard of.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby strumminsix » Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:27 am

kkbriand wrote:As I said his product trade marked name is "The Volume Box" in the first sentence. My bandmaster VM has Jer sparkle with this little gizmo like it does when Vol. around 6-7. stumminsix why are you knocking me is an elite member on the site selling attenuators? So it went from a volume booster to a tone knob now because I mentioned the db's didn't rise when I cranked it. An attenuators job is to reduce to desired levels the volume of sound produced by the amplifier, without altering the quality of the tone that is being sought. Gonna post my 12ax7a freq's before and after this piece of crap 2 dollar device. This not a power soaker att.,nor is it a variac style. It is a power damper style which fully open up your PI tube as if volume were on a level to give just the right amount of signal to open it up before distortion levels then return the output to the exact Volume knob setting. The only resistor in this thing is the Pot. with no additional res. to ground on it and then there's a 2 inch wide spool of burgundy wire, and a bypass cap which I believe is only used to remove any interference and clean up the line out because it's a big yellow square that says .001 on it.
"why am I opening an ol thread?" I searched attenuators and this member's thread didn't end up with an answer. I'll post pictures of the guts later.
I thought you knew all the answers."What Vintage as topic describes mean???? That he doesn't a combo amp FX loop aka preamp tap send jack so he would have to tap it himself. No I'm not a seller and could care less about a 20 dollar sale.
You see this all the time? How about a guy whom built a SMS Classic JG clone after purchasing one for it's innards and design? God hate to see what happened to him if he posted here. Same size unit,you supply paint job and he used the bright switch as a reverb dwell because these remakes the reverb is slightly way over the top.
Actually I like to see what happens to me after this post and our little disagreement because your name is in red=boss.
Sorry didn't mean to offend u just tried to help a member on something I've been toggling with for a long time. I had a powerbrake and a hotplate and ditched them due to amp damage and detrimental outcomes they can cause to your pre section.
I message they seller to day to get a more detailed description.


It's a post PI Master volume. Nothing special. Couple jacks and a pot. Simple.

If you think a BM sounds like a Twin I don't know if I'd trust your ears on this box. BMs have under sized tranformers, utilize a tube rectifer, and without reverb. Having owned a 70s BMR, 60s Twin, 68 DSR, and time with a 60s non-reverb BMR I can say with certainty that they don't sound alike and I have no clue why you'd want to attenuate a small amp to sound like a big amp?! I love my old BMR, great amp, and gets classic Fender cleans but not the pristine clean of a Twin.

The only thing that'll happen to you is that you'll support the theory that you are argumentative. It's a strawman argument that as a mod I'll do something bossy because I disagree with you and I won't take that bait.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby kkbriand » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:24 am

First of all I said said it added some jerryish sparkle like a full opened up tube just before distort type sparkle. I didnt say it sounded like a twin. I own a 67 twin RVRB and a Blues Jr. and my modded Deluxe is great and this little gadget added some crystal on top very good freq. reponse I can actually do arpeggio after arpeggio aka finger rolls one after another with vol 2 on pre and out db's are the same.
Sorry to help a member lost in limbo. Sorry to offend you.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby jefkahn » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:55 am

Not to sidetrack this thread or anything, but I haven't found the volume of my '65 RI Twin to be a problem. Granted, I'm not chasing Jerry's sound, but I think the Twin has plenty of sparkle at low volumes. For example, I set the volume at around 3 and use the 2 jack (which has less gain than the 1 jack). I play a Tele with noiseless pups, and I think the tone is pretty sweet. If I wanted a little break up, I'm either going to use a transparent overdrive pedal or use something other than a Twin. But those harmonic overtones are definitely there, and the difference between the Twin at my volume and, say, a solid state amp is dramatic.

So to me the loudness of the amp is not a problem because no one is making me turn it up past a 4 or 5. It easily covers the range of volumes I would use it at, so unless I wanted to smaller/lighter amp, it's an awesome amp.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby barefootdave » Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:26 pm

I have the Dr. Z attenuator and have been quite happy with it (also says "Train Wreck" on it).

I will probably sell it soon since I just got my Axe FX 2, and getting the tone I want at low volume is no longer an issue. If the OP is still considering this option, I found this to be the best quality option after doing the research about a year ago. Wouldn't consider letting it go if I wasn't so pleased with the AxeFX.

Will probably end up selling the rest of the rig soon also, but not quite ready to pull the trigger on saying goodbye to my H&K and my JBLs.
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Re: Twin reverb with an attenuator - Garcia

Postby Mosfed » Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:14 pm

I decided to approach the problem a little more logically and bought an amp that had the output I needed rather than trying to go ass backwards and put reins on a larger amp.

I got a 1973 Bandmaster Reverb (pre-master volume), brought it back to Blackface AB-763 (but with a tube rectifier) and plugged it into a custom cab with 2 x 12" JBL D-120s.

HEAVEN

Thanks for all the responses.
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