Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than JG's

Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than JG's

Postby gr689 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:35 am

I know its pretty obvious but to me John Kadlecik's guitar sounds an awful lot like Treys from Phish. I really think JK could use some more bass or something that he is ultimately missing. Not that I mind having something different than what Jerry had; change is good; but does it need to sound so much like Phish? I just think he could do something a little different than what he has now. Maybe push it a little in the direction to how jerry had his rig setup in the 80's . Just sayin!
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:04 am

Nope. He wants enough of his sound to come through the Jerry basics. I'm fine with that.

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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby broesau » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:11 pm

I don't think I could disagree with you any more. I don't detect any elements of Trey's tone in John's. Trey's tone is a lot crisper and with that hollow body 'doc it always seems little it's on the verge of feeding back or distorting, which I love, but nothing like JK's. Up until he got the Alembic John's rig was almost identical to Jerry's and his PRS & Carvin had the same specs of Rosebud. There would be times when I'd tune into the dead channel on Sirius and with out looking at the artist's name I could swear I was listening to Jerry. I do think he is making an effort not to recreate Jerry's tone and playing exactly, but whatever he's doing works.

Here's Trey doing Unbroken Chain w/ Phil 4/16/99
http://ia600201.us.archive.org/8/items/1999-04-16.paf.MTX.dan.27712.sbeok.flacf/phil1999-04-16-mtx-d2t05.ogg

Furthur doing Unbroken
http://ia701202.us.archive.org/1/items/furthur2012-04-10.gefells.pasternak.119930.flac2448/furthur2012-04-10s2t09.ogg
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby waldo041 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:17 am

JK's rig in Futhur has never been identical like Jerry's. in fact base rig wise, all he had that was close is the wiring of his guitar and JBL E-120's. he did have some effects and used a true bypass switching system as well, but he never sounded identical to him from his rig.

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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby Griz » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:02 am

Well, the beauty of it all is that there was, and always will be only one Jerry, and his style evolved greatly over the years. We all have our favorite Jerry "eras". I saw my first show in 73, and treasure the cowboy era through the 77-78 stuff.

We are all a product of our environment and influences. As guitar players, we borrow from those we listened to, and hopefully create our personal style. The goal should be to learn what you like, incorporate it, and "call it your own". I stole from Jerry, Duane, Lowell, SRV, etc. Just wish I could steal more from Django...

Bottom line, it's SO cool that JK gets to play with a band he grew up listening to and put his personal stamp on the material, while playing "in the spirit" of Jerry without trying to just replicate.

The band members tones changed so much through the years, and the real challenge isn't to duplicate a specific Jerry "tone era"... It should be to just to hit the right tone niche and let the tunes breathe while listening to what everybody else is playing, and do what's best for the song. THAT'S where and when the magic happens.

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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:31 am

I wouldn't say "totally" different at all. The main difference I hear is in the pick attack, the initial transient response. JK gets his smoothing at the front end where many/most of us going for an authentic Jerry tone get it at the back end. What I mean by that is that John goes for a bit of tube clipping at the front end of his preamp and lets the power amp and speaker end of things run clean and linear. By nature, that kind of clipping will be asymmetrical and contain a high proportion of even-ordered harmonics unique to asymmetrical clipping. Also, dynamically, it's a compressed sound, more akin to what we think of with bluesy or rock guitar tones. That compression may be why you hear Trey in the sound. What I hear with this approach is a very smooth, very sweet yet an un-dynamic sound. Very evened out. That compression happening so early in the chain kind of restricts the dynamic range of picking expression and volume control. In Furthur, the main difference I hear between John and Jerry is that John's pick attacks often disappear into the music, hidden beneath drum beats and Bob and Phil's attacks, and mostly we only get to hear the notes bloom after the beats and pick attacks. Jerry's pick attacks popped out with great presence and "pop" and clarity above the band. To me that's the big, glaring difference. But other than that, I find John's tone to be very Jerry, very clear and sweet, emotive, and serves the songs very nicely.

The approach that most of us here seem to take when going for a Jerry tone is to keep PLENTY of clean headroom thru the preamp stage to capture the full dynamic range of picking expression and then let the peaks and pops and transients get delivered thru with great force into the power amp and speakers and then let the smoothing happen there, at the power amp and at the speakers. It only works at high volume. That's when the JBL's do their own natural compression and subtle, sweet distortion. It's also when the power amplifier generates little amounts of peak limiting and subtle symmetrical clipping. It's that symmetrical clipping that, to me, sounds SO identifiably "Jerry". There's a clean-ness, a clarity, and a crisp, crackling focus in the clipping. That mechanism right there, the stressed power amp and speakers, I think, is central to getting that meaty, punchy, expressive Jerry tone where the pick attacks poke thru loud and clear and don't get buried under the band.

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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby waldo041 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:27 am

i think brad intermingles both the playing dynamics and rig dynamics of JK's approach. both contribute to ones overall tone. brad stated exactly what i was trying to relay with his rig. but as for JK's playing, in the context the GD material he is nailing just as he always has but in the context of some jams and to some extent solos, he does these days swing more in favor of the sustainy climatic runs more akin to Trey the Jerry.

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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby gr8fullfred » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:25 am

I have thought that JK's clean sound is not so Jerry-ish, but his distorted sound pretty much nailed the Jerry sound, or at least is highly suggestive of it.
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby mgbills » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:38 am

+1 Griz! Eloquently put.

Brad ... You have a knack for getting to the core of these things, while avoiding much of the verbiage which leads down a rabbit-hole of ambiguity. Conversations about tone without some measure of objectivity are difficult. And yet we must use these terms as representations of what we're attempting to describe.

This post is really an eye opener. It really seems to get to the core. Can we expect The Clipper to allow our notes to "bloom" through the preamp and clip downstream without having to push high decibels?

Fascinating. Thanks much!
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:24 am

Another thought on this topic. When the signal gets clipped and smoothed over and compressed at the front end of the preamp and before our reverb, this has a big effect on how the reverb responds. With Jerry, the reverb was fed a very clean and dynamic signal so that when he picked hard, the reverb tank would respond accordingly. Jerry had total control of the nuances of the reverb because the signal was fully expressive and clean at that stage. If we clip the signal before the reverb, then the send to the reverb is also limited and the 'verb never gets to be snapped, poked, and prodded with the full range of our picking dynamic. With Jerry, not only did his pick attacks pop thru with a power and clarity, but the reverb also responded directly and gave a "report" or brief history after the picking in the form of reverb to further add to the audibility and noticeability of the picking dynamics.

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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby zoooombiex » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:58 am

Just taking a step back, I can't say JK's sound is "totally different" than Jerry's. Jerry went through a lot of different tones over the years and I see JK's tone more as an amalgam of all those tones rather than mimicing any specific era exactly. It still sounds distinctly Jerry-ish to me. Though I agree his OD tone tends to be the later, more compressed OD sound, which is closer to Trey's tone than Jerry's earlier OD tones were. (That might go to Brad's point about the compression coming early in the chain as opposed to the end.)

On a related note, from a playing point of view I think JK has also been expanding to add in more of his own voice. He obviously still incorporates a lot of Jerry's phrasing, but he also seems to be adding in more of his own flavor at times and when he does it sometimes adds a slightly Trey-ish feel. So that could be part of what the OP is hearing too.

Just my $.02...
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:06 pm

Good point. I think John has been on a path with Furthur to refine and define his own personal tone and sound approach, not necessarily trying to clone Jerry's as he may have done back in the DSO days. I think that what he's come up with sounds wonderful in its own right. I've been moved to tears at Furthur shows, and JK's playing and sound is no small part of that reaction.


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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby The Stag » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:26 pm

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:Good point. I think John has been on a path with Furthur to refine and define his own personal tone and sound approach, not necessarily trying to clone Jerry's as he may have done back in the DSO days. I think that what he's come up with sounds wonderful in its own right. I've been moved to tears at Furthur shows, and JK's playing and sound is no small part of that reaction.


B

I couldnt disagree with you more! Everybody goes to see furthur to hear Grateful Dead songs. and jk does his best to ruin them. I want to hear Garcia tone and Garcia riffs not anything jk wants to do. mmmmkay
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby Stevo123 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:41 pm

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:Good point. I think John has been on a path with Furthur to refine and define his own personal tone and sound approach, not necessarily trying to clone Jerry's as he may have done back in the DSO days. I think that what he's come up with sounds wonderful in its own right. I've been moved to tears at Furthur shows, and JK's playing and sound is no small part of that reaction.
B


Totally agree. I've gotten major goosebumps several times at Furthur shows (especially those beautiful jams in the middle of Terrapin, one great example being Allgood 2010). JK has a way of pinpointing and bringing home the emotional content of the underlying themes of the jams in such a beautiful and natural way.
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Re: Does anyone else think JK's sound is totally diff. than

Postby zoooombiex » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:42 pm

The Stag wrote:Everybody goes to see furthur to hear Grateful Dead songs. and jk does his best to ruin them. I want to hear Garcia tone and Garcia riffs not anything jk wants to do. mmmmkay


:?:

I honestly can't tell if this is meant to be serious or sarcastic
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