Dark Star Orchestra

When it doesn't fit anywhere else

Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Lephty » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:35 am

wolftigerrosebud wrote:
You people can justify the fluff any way you want but the truth is that whenever the GD lost a member in the past they took an evolutionary step. When Pigpen left and subsequently died they kept elements of the past but became different. The same happened when Keith & Donna left and when Brent died. I felt that the original members successfully did that again after Jerry when they formed The Otherones in '98 by adding a sax (Dave Ellis) and Bruce Hornsby as a leader. There was even an evolutionary step taken when they toured with Warren Haynes (Not a favorite of mine), but he brought his own thing to the table. The problem with Fake Jerry is that he brings nothing new to the table. I'm not saying that there isn't some good music being made; I'm simply saying that its boring, repetitive, and is nothing but nostalgia. I want to love it as a die hard deadhead but I'd rather hang out with my friends at home and listen to the Grateful Dead."


I don't totally disagree with you here, but I will say that losing Pigpen, Keith/Donna, and Brent are VERY different from losing Jerry Garcia, in terms of how the loss affected the basic fabric of the band. I have spent a LOT of time hanging out at home with my friends listening to GD, and at least once in a while, I'd personally rather go see Furthur at Red Rocks, warts and all.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby mgbills » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:38 am

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, wolftigerrosebud. And I truly appreciate your perspective.

I loved some post Jerry iterations. Hornsby's always great. Dug the sax. Loved Joan Osbourne. Could never really get around Warren & the slide, but the last time I saw him he'd clearly been woodshedding & adding more interesting texture.

I also spent some time nit-picking the Grateful Dead in the mid-80's, and again in the 90's. Gotta say...interest wained at times for sure. It's ultimately a sad tale, where seemingly nobody had the Cojones to say "Stop." Some nights in those days nobody seemed to be doing anything but coasting, and suffering from entropy.

Yesterday I was misappropriating some office time & listening to the "Day's Between" samples from the mid 90's. Jerry...or anybody else could still bring the magic...but it was fleeting.

My last (and somewhat belabored point) is that through these experiences, and my limited perception of what was truly going on back in the day...when I see that Joy in the playing of this music by founding members and those they've selected to participate...that has tremendous value to me. I percieved bitterness when Billy is quoted as saying "It ain't the Dead if it doesn't have Warren Haynes." Billy...it ain't he Dead. I don't perceive bitterness within Furthur. Also, the first time I saw them in Seattle (2 years ago?), Phil clearly had JK in reigns. To see freedom, expression, and evolution a year later gives me home.

Last dig...if it came from the Phish Board ( :roll: )...well they're used to .... Nevermind. That would just be petty.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby wolftigerrosebud » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:46 pm

well, guys, i appreciate you being so cool about wanting to accept my perspective and all, but it's not my perspective. it's what someone else wrote on a phish forum, like i said. here's a link to the discussion:

http://phantasytour.com/bands/1/topics/2780939/posts
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby mgbills » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:15 pm

And that thread seemed 60:40 to the positive :-)
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby foolofships » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:30 pm

I saw DSO in March here in Portland, and they were super fantastic. That was one of my all-time favorite shows from any band. I enjoyed Mattson's playing more than the five or six times I saw JK in that gig BECAUSE Mattson is an explosive player. JK was more of a technician when he was with DSO, trying to capture just the right lick or tone for the time period at the expense of the abandon that Mattson puts out. JK sure has the Jerry vocals down, though. His singing sounds much more like Garcia than his playing ever did.

I like JK's playing in Furthur, and how he works with Phil, Bobby and Jeff. He's not just trying to do the Jerry thing. Not that Warren, Herring and Kimock were trying to do the Jerry thing, but there's an ineffable personality component that makes Phil and Bobby work better with JK that the others just didn't have.

For the first time since about 1994, Bobby and Phil sound like they are into it. I would get so frustrated in 2003 through 2008 when jam time came along and the first thing Phil would do was ditch the drummers, and everybody on stage focused on cacophony rather than dialogue. Furthur listens to each other and jams together. It doesn't always work out spectacularly, but they're trying again. The thing is that the Grateful Dead were like a wheel with Jerry at the hub and the other guys' ideas all flowing to and from the hub. With the hub gone, the wheel don't roll. It can't be a wheel anymore, it has to be something else. To me, Furthur sound like they're on the cusp of being something else, whatever it is.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Stone » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:11 pm

Was really let down by DSO the few times I seen them. I had high hope also. John seemed like the only star then and I felt then that he sounded unique and not totally JG but liked how he seemed to run the band. However Rob Eaton on stage felt an looked D-Baggy and that chick with the headphones annoyed me to no end. And in the end it wasn't any better then any good GD act in any major city. Personally liked Stu Allen better then the new guy they got. But hey sell the tix, just wasn't my bag.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby strumminsix » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:35 pm

Stone wrote:Was really let down by DSO the few times I seen them. I had high hope also. John seemed like the only star then and I felt then that he sounded unique and not totally JG but liked how he seemed to run the band. However Rob Eaton on stage felt an looked D-Baggy and that chick with the headphones annoyed me to no end. And in the end it wasn't any better then any good GD act in any major city. Personally liked Stu Allen better then the new guy they got. But hey sell the tix, just wasn't my bag.

Wow. Lisa is a helluva singer and person. She uses those as shield against volume.

Won't comment about Eaton's countenance.

Kevin is a killer bassist.

Drummers have been the variables when I've seen them.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Octal » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:18 pm

Kevin is a wonderfully animated person. If there is anyone in the band to watch, it's Kevin. The few statements he does say into the microphone tend to be worthwhile, his facial expressions are great, and I like the way he occasionally dances (which tends to look more like pretending to dance and not actually dancing).

Barraco is a natural entertainer, very outgoing and personable. He was also originally a jazz player, which is only good in my book.

I've noticed that Eaton has a bit of a (insert word here) look, but he's even got some of the Bobby impersonation things going on, such as waiting for the last moment to run up to the microphone.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Mr.Burns » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:54 am

I get the feeling Eaton is a method actor, and that he would have difficulty dropping character. I suspect he lives the role. I swear from the neck down he's indistinguishable from the real thing, as far as his mannerisms go.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Octal » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:22 pm

Mr.Burns wrote:I get the feeling Eaton is a method actor, and that he would have difficulty dropping character. I suspect he lives the role. I swear from the neck down he's indistinguishable from the real thing, as far as his mannerisms go.

Which is funny because I believe DSO is trying to separate themselves from the opinion that they "recreate dead shows." They play a specific arrangement, but are very much making "their own mistakes" and not following the Grateful Dead's mistakes.

I got that phrase when I asked what they do about recreating shows that have blatant mistakes in them. The thing is, they aren't recreating shows, but setlists.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Mr.Burns » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:16 am

Lephty wrote:Also, as a guitar player, if you want the music to truly sound like the Grateful Dead, you have to emulate Jerry's sound somewhat. Otherwise you get Jimmy Herring, Warren Haynes, or Scofield--all great players without a doubt, but to me the sound loses some of its authenticity with those guys, and with JK it sounds like the real deal.


I saw Phil and Friends in 2001 with Warren and Jimmy, and while nobody conjured Jerry, they did manage to impress upon me how important the interplay between two guitar players is. Even though they played a familiar setlist of mostly Grateful Dead songs, their approach sounded fresh, which is near impossible when your goal is to emulate. Those two were amazing, and the only pair of guitarists I've witnessed since then with a seemingly telepathic link are Warren and Derek Trucks. Just sayin'. Oh, and btw, that P&F show topped all the DSO shows I've ever seen, by far. To be fair, it was the Chicago show, the first of the tour.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby Phil Lesh101 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:38 am

Kevin is an excellent bassist but when he sings... man he sounds like a girl scout! :lol:
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby The Stag » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:19 am

i agree that jk is able to do his own thing in furthur and his own sound and thats what i dislike. if i liked hearing jks own thing id go see the jk band. when i go to see the remaining members of the Grateful Dead i just want to hear somone who can do Garcia not his own thing. and it sucks for me because i never got the chance to actually see Garcia and this is probably why i want someone closer to his sound. most of you on here have gotten the chance to hear jerry live and for this i am jelous. i just wanted too hear the closest possible thing to him and jk in my opinion dosent do it. but its all a matter of opinion i guess
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby ebick » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:48 am

The Stag wrote:i agree that jk is able to do his own thing in furthur and his own sound and thats what i dislike. if i liked hearing jks own thing id go see the jk band. when i go to see the remaining members of the Grateful Dead i just want to hear somone who can do Garcia not his own thing. and it sucks for me because i never got the chance to actually see Garcia and this is probably why i want someone closer to his sound. most of you on here have gotten the chance to hear jerry live and for this i am jelous. i just wanted too hear the closest possible thing to him and jk in my opinion dosent do it. but its all a matter of opinion i guess


Pardon me for not sharing your opinion, and you being someone who never got to see Jerry, I kinda get it, but.....

Your post, in my opinion, points out everything that is wrong with JK, and the current incarnation of the Grateful Dead Live Music machine.

Why didn't they care about you recording their shows? I love Yes, but if you went to a Yes concert and recorded it, you could stand outside the venue the next day and say to someone, "why bother going to this show? sell your ticket and buy this recording and you will hear what you will hear tonight." and they'd be pretty much right.

Every Dead concert, every performance of every song.....they're goal was to create something new and different. Sure, Jack Straw is Jack Straw, and it wasn't going to be massively different from one performance to the next, but they didn't approach it saying "this is how it must be done".

The incarnation before this one, I think they had Warren? THAT sounded like a band still trying to do new and different stuff.

This band is a greatest hits band. A "let's get someone who is as close to Jerry as we can find and stick him in Jerry's spot" band. And his guitar does kinda sound like Jerry's. But I just went to see Furthur for my first, and most likely, last time. You can't replace a Jerry Garcia. And everything the Dead was ever about said why even try? Perhaps they are just to old to be seeking something new, and if they came out and said that, it would be fair enough. But you do have a large contingent of folks who want the old and familiar, not something new.
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Re: Dark Star Orchestra

Postby strumminsix » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:52 am

Oddly, JK sounds less like Jerry every year. And his playing and soulfulness improves!!!

He does a great Jerry. But, IMO, he is there to be JK paying homage to Jerry vs aping Jerry.
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