Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby Jon S. » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:30 pm

We all dig new toys. I'm as guilty as anyone in this regard. This being admitted, I don't think it would hurt you, Al, before you decide you've got a problem needing fixing, to ascertain whether you've really got a problem at all. Sometimes we think we need to change the world when all we need to do is free our minds (apologies to John Lennon). For me, the key benefit of an on-board, pre-OBEL buffer - why I invested in two of them in two of my guitars - is having the signal is buffered up front before it leaves the guitar for the OBEL. My concept of tone is that this is desirable. :smile: If I've misunderstood your intent, Al, I apologize but if what you're thinking is you'll not only hear the difference between a standalone buffer pedal and an already-buffered effect pedal but it will make a significant difference in your ultimate tone under the conditions you play in, by all means, go for it. Personally, I doubt, in a double-blind test so we aren't misled by our expectations, that many if any of us could, and that is also my personal experience and why I shared the article I did, but it's a free world. Plus you may in fact hear things I and others can't. Eric Johnson can. Jerry I'm sure could. Perhaps also Waldo. Tone, like wine, is subjective. If you can both taste the difference between a $25 and $125 bottle and wine and that difference is worth it to you, buy the $125 bottle. If not, my view is, enjoy your $25 bottle and save the extra C-note for something you can discern and value.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby foolofships » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:22 am

I built a Waldo-style buffer on perfboard. It's not a hard build; my biggest problem was HOLY CRAP THAT CAPACITOR IS HUGE. I used it for a while, and boy does it give a guitar a glassy attack that's perfect for nailing the Jerry sound.

I went back to a different buffer, though, because 1) it consumed batteries quickly, 2) it was surprisingly noisy, and 3) it was a little too much Jerry sound for me. Numbers 1 and 2 should not be taken as any kind of slight at Waldo's buffers; I built my own, after all.
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby 1dallek1 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:27 am

foolofships wrote:I built a Waldo-style buffer on perfboard. It's not a hard build; my biggest problem was HOLY CRAP THAT CAPACITOR IS HUGE. I used it for a while, and boy does it give a guitar a glassy attack that's perfect for nailing the Jerry sound.

I went back to a different buffer, though, because 1) it consumed batteries quickly, 2) it was surprisingly noisy, and 3) it was a little too much Jerry sound for me. Numbers 1 and 2 should not be taken as any kind of slight at Waldo's buffers; I built my own, after all.


hi
this is fun
which buffer did you go back to ? and please if you could list the brand and type of parts you used? for example did you use wima caps and if you did were they mk4, did you use 1% dale metal film, or rather were they metal film or carbon film ? and why don't people post pictures of their buffers in as much detail as possible.
thanks
ns
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby Jon S. » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:15 pm

A friend I discussed this thread with today referred me to this video which y'all might dig, too (posted on TGP on May 30 by, of all persons, its author). And this'll be be my last comment on the topic. :smile:

"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby mgbills » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:06 pm

There is a secondary major advantage (and maybe this is not the place for this), to the OBEL. Consistency of signal to your effects. I don't see a significant difference between having my MXR Dist + or ED post OBEL. Both do their thing perfectly & consistently from within the OBEL. I assume a pedalboard buffer would provide a similar service to all downstream effects. Years ago before I personally played, I bought my then 14 yo son a Qtron. Nightmare. Now he has a Strat w/ Waldo Buffer. Same pedal. Awesome. Everytime he uses it. I have a Mutron. Awesome.

So, in my opinion...the OBEL aids in replicating a beautiful signal, and it makes stomp boxes friendly.

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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby waldo041 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:55 pm

if he used a 30 foot cable up to that box he would be feeding it the same thing when he is in true bypass with the pedal. adding capacitance, as he stated, shifts the resonant frequency and adding any length of cable up to that box will increase the capacitance. it is the 20 foot of cable and it's associated capacitance that gets eliminated AFTER that box. anything fed up to it is involved in the RLC circuit he describes, so he is not shortening cable there as he is falsely stating.

partly the reason jerry used his buffer onboard his guitar was for the elimination of ALL cable capacitance associated with his cable lengths from guitar to amp. but more importantly it was the use of his OnBoard Effects Loop and its additional cable lengths associated with it. that is why he used the buffer in his guitar versus any one of the buffers in each one of his effects. i wonder if he knew what he was doing? after all this guy in the youtube vid has it all figured out, no? EVERY one of JG's effects had an internal buffer in their bypassed states! the musitronics, mxr's, boss's, ada all have buffers in their bypassed states. why didn't he just use one of those? oh yeah, i think he did for a very brief 1 or 2 year period of his 30 year career. i wonder why he dropped that concept? also, why do you think instead of running multiple buffers together he true bypassed them all? i don't think he had a clue, let alone any concept of how to achieve a great tone. nah, i think this video clearly shows how to achieve it. this guys must make millions with his tone, no?

i also love the terms he uses such as basically or BUT for the most part when stating you can use any buffer. while this is absolutely true, it is a blanket statement. can you use any distortion pedal and get the same results from each one? while some will be essentially the same rehashed thing, there tends to be differences between them. how can this be though, they are all distortion pedals? same goes for a guitar, pickups, an amplifier, or speakers, etc. an amplifier just amplifies the guitars signal from a guitar with a pickup. can you plug that same guitar and pickup into another make of amp and expect the exact same result? even if you just twist knobs? no, so why try and throw the same blanket statement upon different buffer circuits? they are not all the same. while the "buffer" function is the same, the end results in their tone/sound are not at all.

if you can't taste the difference between a $125 and a $25 bottle of wine, then you probably have no idea what you are looking for in the tasting of the wine, and probably should stay away from advising anybody anything about wine!

~waldo
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby Jon S. » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:39 am

waldo041 wrote:if you can't taste the difference between a $125 and a $25 bottle of wine, then you probably have no idea what you are looking for in the tasting of the wine, and probably should stay away from advising anybody anything about wine!

~waldo

I'm done debating buffers but it bears reminding that when you can't accurately paraphrase a person's remarks you should probably stay away from paraphrasing him!

Jon S.

Jon S. wrote: If you can both taste the difference between a $25 and $125 bottle and wine and that difference is worth it to you, buy the $125 bottle. If not, my view is, enjoy your $25 bottle and save the extra C-note for something you can discern and value.
"For me, I think the only danger is being too much in love with guitar playing. The music is the most important thing, and the guitar is only the instrument." Jerry Garcia
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby foolofships » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:50 pm

1dallek1 wrote:
foolofships wrote:I built a Waldo-style buffer on perfboard. It's not a hard build; my biggest problem was HOLY CRAP THAT CAPACITOR IS HUGE. I used it for a while, and boy does it give a guitar a glassy attack that's perfect for nailing the Jerry sound.

I went back to a different buffer, though, because 1) it consumed batteries quickly, 2) it was surprisingly noisy, and 3) it was a little too much Jerry sound for me. Numbers 1 and 2 should not be taken as any kind of slight at Waldo's buffers; I built my own, after all.


hi
this is fun
which buffer did you go back to ? and please if you could list the brand and type of parts you used? for example did you use wima caps and if you did were they mk4, did you use 1% dale metal film, or rather were they metal film or carbon film ? and why don't people post pictures of their buffers in as much detail as possible.
thanks
ns
I went back to one of my own design. I didn't pay attention to the brand of components I used, I just ordered them fom Small Bear. I would guess that people don't post their buffer designs in as much detail as possible because they don't want assholes to steal their designs.

In my case, my design is totally straightforward and obvious to any person having ordinary skill in the art, and thus completely unremarkable.
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby 1dallek1 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:15 am

ns[/quote]I went back to one of my own design. I didn't pay attention to the brand of components I used, I just ordered them fom Small Bear. I would guess that people don't post their buffer designs in as much detail as possible because they don't want assholes to steal their designs.

In my case, my design is totally straightforward and obvious to any person having ordinary skill in the art, and thus completely unremarkable.[/quote]

so your opinion is that the parts play no role other than just values on a board?
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby foolofships » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:45 pm

1dallek1 wrote:so your opinion is that the parts play no role other than just values on a board?
I don't know enough about the subtleties of electronic circuit design to have an opinion as to whether or how a particular brand of component affects the sound of a given circuit. I would guess that for a low-frequency, low-current application like an OBEL buffer, the brand of IC might matter. Might.
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby RiverRat » Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:01 am

foolofships wrote:I would guess that people don't post their buffer designs in as much detail as possible because they don't want assholes to steal their designs.


The UGB design is about a sophisticated as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich... Thousands of variations can be found using Google. Not many people are posting their PB&J recipe's, not because some asshole will steal it but because it's not worth posting. And you don't hear too many chefs raving about their PB&J's for the exact same reason.
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby Mr.Burns » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:42 am

Jon S. wrote:I'm done debating buffers but it bears reminding that when you can't accurately paraphrase a person's remarks you should probably stay away from paraphrasing him


Well, now, if that ain't the pot callin the kettle black! :lol:
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby foolofships » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:58 pm

RiverRat wrote:
foolofships wrote:I would guess that people don't post their buffer designs in as much detail as possible because they don't want assholes to steal their designs.


The UGB design is about a sophisticated as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich... Thousands of variations can be found using Google. Not many people are posting their PB&J recipe's, not because some asshole will steal it but because it's not worth posting. And you don't hear too many chefs raving about their PB&J's for the exact same reason.


I'm not posting mine because I have to take the pickguard off my Strat to look at it, and that's a pain in the butt. I should have kept track of where I kept the schematic. Maybe someday. From memory, it involves a +/- 9V supply, several 1uF elecrolytic caps, half a 4558, and the peanut butter has to be spread just right or it won't work.

I like your guess better than mine, River Rat. :cheers:
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Re: Perfboard Buffer? Anyone tried it?

Postby al.hurst » Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:44 pm

Well, My mom got me the buffer from Waldo but I still may try building one in a pedal form just because :cool:

Alot of points have been brought up that are all valid and very interesting.. :hail:
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