keys

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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:48 pm

waldo041 wrote:
Mick wrote:Could be. I have had that argument too many times to remember all of the combatants and their origins! My point that is "Fire on the Mountain is written in the key of B" actually has no argument to it. I have several books, two from Ice Nine Publishing, showing that Mickey Hart WROTE the song in the key of B. I have had seemingly otherwise intelligent players say "well, then Mickey wrote it wrong!" when faced with that fact. My opinion is that writing it in B using the rhythm chords of B major and A major makes sense to me, and doesn't seem in any way "wrong". My opinion is also that when soloing to the tune, if you want to use the CAGED positions for the key of E, you'll sound great, so there really isn't anything "wrong" there either. At one time I did a "melodic analysis" in scale degrees of the song, and it clearly was more sensical to me in B, but if it is more sensical to someone else in E, I don't have a problem with that. It just doesn't change the FACT that the song was written in B.


well, mickey hart did not write those books and i have seen many have a wrong key signature before. i went ahead and grabbed the sheet music and sure enough it is written in the key of B major(5 sharps), but had to laugh when i seen all the A# notes/chords in the sheet music changed to accidentals(naturals)! :smile: does it matter that in B major that A# is a diminished chord?

just proves the sheet music should have been written in E major with a B Mixolydian tonal center, then all those accidentals would be eliminated. the only difference between B major and E major is that A#.

but yeah you been correct all along mick, as long as you change that A# to an A you can stay in b Major all you want or is that B major anymore?

peace,
waldo


The book's authors probably wrote it with 5 sharps just to indicate that you're supposed to begin and end on B and treat B as the most important note. They certainly don't want you to ever actually play that A#!

The bottom line is, we've left the world of traditional theory behind and we're quickly approaching the world of Jazz theory, where things are a lot more nebulous and the concepts of "correct" and "incorrect" start breaking down. For Jazz charts they often don't even bother to write a key signature.
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:58 pm

the key signature is the notated scale used for a particular piece of music. it is not necessarily the key of the song. when a note inside the music is outside the key signature it is called an accidental and marked accordingly, flat, sharp or natural. nothing "jazz" about that! i absolutely agree that the song is being asked to be played from B to B, but since the key signature is a representive of the scale used, and not necassarily the Key, the accidentals within the music help shape what is actually being played. A is not within the B major scale so it is represented as an accidental where the A# is. since this appears to be the only note/chord changed from the key Signature scale, even though the Key signature states to use a B major scale, the accidental without a doubt shows that this is in fact in the key of E. the accidental notated is the note to be played in this case an A not an A# superseding the Key Signature because it does not necessarily represent the actual key.

oh and the fact that jerry actually plays an e chord within the song also show that this song is indeed in the key of E, played from it's V or B Mixolydian.

B to B i agree, just not B major. B Mixolydian the V of E major. Modes are not Keys the author created a Transposed Mode.

peace,
waldo
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:18 am

One of the big problems I have with the way music theory is taught is that they present it as if what they're teaching you are the Laws of Nature, written on a stone tablet somewhere. It's not that concrete, it's just a convenient way of understanding one type of music out of all the thousands of genres in the world.

They're really just giving you guidelines of how to write like Bach or Mozart. Beethoven himself broke those rules quite often, and Claude Debussy wrote music that focused on the whole tone scale and obliterated the major-scale-key-signature convention well over 100 years ago.


You can look at FOTM as E major if you like, with the E triad being in no way the resting tone or tonic note. It's not "wrong", it's just a little cumbersome and inconvenient, especially if you think in terms of scale degrees. Thinking of it as V, IV, V, IV feels awkward especially when you end on that V. If you mostly play major scales as patterns and boxes (and there's nothing wrong with that, whatever gets the job done is fine), then thinking of it as E major makes perfect sense. If you're a harmonica player, then you have no other choice but to think of it that way.

Personally as a bass player my instrument is a nice convenient grid so I don't have to think in boxes, and root notes are my primary focus. The tonal center is far more important for me, I can cover it up if I goof and play the wrong 7th but it's a big problem if I goof and play the wrong root. For me, looking at it as B Major with every single A# lowered to A natural as an accidental makes more sense. But in reality, taking away the sheetmusic for a minute, if you flat every single 7th note of a tune it's not really an accidental anymore, it's in every practial way a part of the primary scale of the tune.

The most convenient way by far is to look at it as a tune in B Mixolydian. It's simple, easy to explain, and doesn't require any extra steps of thought while playing. It's not what Mozart would have done but it's exactly what Miles Davis would do. (e.g. Freddie the Freeloader - blues in Bb Mixo with an Ab major chord in the last two bars of the form)
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Re: keys

Postby mttourpro » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:03 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:One of the big problems I have with the way music theory is taught is that they present it as if what they're teaching you are the Laws of Nature, written on a stone tablet somewhere. It's not that concrete, it's just a convenient way of understanding one type of music out of all the thousands of genres in the world.



One of my favorite statements I've ever read and remembered was from a somewhat obscure phenomenological philosopher named Edmund Husserl who said (when deconstructing the notion and virtue of empirical science)

"we take for true being what is really the mathematization of nature".


Call it what you want, but it's about the sound not the vision. "Theory" imho, is great for verbally or visually communicating an auditory idea, beyond that, it generally gets in the way.

:smile:

Just happened to stumble on this today after writing the above...funny how those things happen. pretty good read.

http://kimock.com/kimockskorner/2009/mu ... ou-decide/
http://www.thecausejams.com

let your life proceed by its own design....
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Re: keys

Postby Mick » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:05 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:The most convenient way by far is to look at it as a tune in B Mixolydian. It's simple, easy to explain, and doesn't require any extra steps of thought while playing. It's not what Mozart would have done but it's exactly what Miles Davis would do. (e.g. Freddie the Freeloader - blues in Bb Mixo with an Ab major chord in the last two bars of the form)


Again, I may be missing a finer point of musical theory here, but if you said the song was in the key of B major, and used the scale of B mixolydian, I would agree with you on both. The melody in scale degrees definitely makes more sense in the key of B and is mentally easier to follow for me. But when soloing in the tune, using the B mixolydian scale, and therefore eliminating the possibility of playing an A# during a measure with the A major rhythm chord, and its associated and probably unwanted dissonance, sounds like a practical way to go. This is the way I think of it when playing along with others.
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:47 pm

Kimock has both a better ear than me, and more talent by far. For me, I was a kid who loved to take his toys apart to see how they work, and I have very little actual musical talent. So I had a natural inclination to "take the music apart" to see how it works, and one of the things that I found was every situation is different. The approach that helps you sound like Mozart doesn't help you sound like Chuck Berry. The approach that helps you sound like Ramble On Rose doesn't even help you sound like Dark Star. Theory to me is just a discription of each approach, and a huge part of how I do what I do.

Mick wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:The most convenient way by far is to look at it as a tune in B Mixolydian. It's simple, easy to explain, and doesn't require any extra steps of thought while playing. It's not what Mozart would have done but it's exactly what Miles Davis would do. (e.g. Freddie the Freeloader - blues in Bb Mixo with an Ab major chord in the last two bars of the form)


Again, I may be missing a finer point of musical theory here, but if you said the song was in the key of B major, and used the scale of B mixolydian, I would agree with you on both. The melody in scale degrees definitely makes more sense in the key of B and is mentally easier to follow for me. But when soloing in the tune, using the B mixolydian scale, and therefore eliminating the possibility of playing an A# during a measure with the A major rhythm chord, and its associated and probably unwanted dissonance, sounds like a practical way to go. This is the way I think of it when playing along with others.


I don't disagree with what you're saying at all. I just personally prefer to shorten this:

the song was in the key of B major, and used the scale of B mixolydian,


To this:

the song was in the key of B mixolydian,


It's simple and concise, and causes the A Major chord to make a lot more sense as VII. They don't teach modal harmony in the first two years of traditional music theory classes, but they do use modal keys in jazz and in modern classical as well.
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Re: keys

Postby Mick » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:00 pm

You know, I have had this discussion many times over the years with many people, both real and in the online world. Generally, I have tried to be respectful of all views due to the fact that I don't consider myself to be any sort of great player (maybe mediocre hobbyist at best), and I have no significant formal training in music or musical theory (unless you count 4 years of trumpet lessons when I was in grammar school). However, I will admit that Waldo's condescending attitude towards me on this point was particularly annoying given that I have tried to maintain an open mind, and that his admonishment to me that "the only difference between B major and E major is that A#." appears to be nothing short of an insult to my intelligence, was more than a little annoying. As a result, when I had some time to myself tonight, I pulled a book off my shelf and decided to look again at the sheet music to see if I thought I was off base.

I chose the following book: "The Very Best of the Greatful Dead" Copyright 2004 Warner Brothers Publications, with special emphasis on the section titled "Fire on the Mountain" starting on page 144, and with the following acknowledgments:

Words by Robert Hunter
Music by Mickey Hart
Copyright 1978 Ice Nine Publishing Co. Inc.

Commonly known among deadheads, at least in my neck of the woods, as the "Gold Book".

I'll spare any readers the details of the numerous reasons why I think Waldo is, to be nice, off base and reaching for any straw to avoid admitting he was wrong, and focus on the last line of the song. As I have been taught numerous times in many different situations and musical endeavors (plinking on guitars is not my only musical hobby), songs tend to end on a note or chord that leaves them feeling "finished", often the root of the key of the song, the root chord of the key, or some other note or chord that finally and definitively resolves any outstanding dissonance that has yet to be resolved. The last note of this song just happens to be an A#. If this isn't a resolution of the dissonant A naturals in the rhythm of the song to the written key of B major, I can't imagine what would be. There are numerous other indications in the sheet music that this song was intended to be sung in the key of B major, though I am sure that all of them would fall upon deaf ears among those reading this thread who are emotionally invested in the idea that the song is, or at least should be, written in the key of E. As such, I will conclude my participation in this thread, and the discussion on this board regarding the key of "Fire on the Mountain" with my first ever use of this emoticon, directed specifically at Waldo.

:fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:
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Re: keys

Postby Octal » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:54 pm

What if FOTM isn't in...gasp...any key!?
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:10 pm

Mick wrote:You know, I have had this discussion many times over the years with many people, both real and in the online world. Generally, I have tried to be respectful of all views due to the fact that I don't consider myself to be any sort of great player (maybe mediocre hobbyist at best), and I have no significant formal training in music or musical theory (unless you count 4 years of trumpet lessons when I was in grammar school). However, I will admit that Waldo's condescending attitude towards me on this point was particularly annoying given that I have tried to maintain an open mind, and that his admonishment to me that "the only difference between B major and E major is that A#." appears to be nothing short of an insult to my intelligence, was more than a little annoying.


you have been anything but "open minded" as you claim, if you were then the comment would never had been an insult to your ego. it was never intended to be an insult! it was meant to show that there is simply one note that is seperating your opinion from mine.

Mick wrote:As such, I will conclude my participation in this thread, and the discussion on this board regarding the key of "Fire on the Mountain" with my first ever use of this emoticon, directed specifically at Waldo.

:fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu: :fu:


again, i never meant an insult towards you. i appreciate your participation, and am sorry if i have offended you in any way. not my intention whatsoever! this merely is/was a debate with 2 opposing opinions, and the fact that you have come out and called me #1 with your first use of this particular emoticon clearly suggests that you absolutely think your opinion is the only answer. that is a little offensive in itself. i will not admit wrong, when i do not believe i am wrong. that is your opinion!

peace,
waldo
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Re: keys

Postby hippieguy1954 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:00 am

Hey guys calm down, man! It's a song for cryin out loud. A very simple but profound two chord song. No need to get excited and angry. All opinions are good when in discussion. Sometimes ones' opinion is percieved as a direct attack when you can't hear the tone of voice or see facial expressions. It can become convoluted when a discussion is only typed and not expressed gently as it would be in person face to face. As far as I'm concerned, everyone in this discussion are good people voicing an opinion and having an interest in the music WE love...that is all it is.

Some people just sound/seem condecending when typing thier words because they are not speaking and are not especially good at it unless they are typing thier words about something technical. Therefore, when they type thier words in any discussion other than technical, they still sound the same way when typing words...technical and to the point. It is a mistake to take it personal and always, always accept apologies with an open heart!

As far as FOTM, like I said, it is a simple two chord song. It is probably the simplist GD song. B and A! Brilliantly composed using, again very simple, octave bass foundation and basic guitar notes. I call it key of B, but if another musician wants to call it something elce, who cares as long as he plays it correctly and it sounds good!
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Re: keys

Postby easytoslip » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:07 pm

wisedyes wrote:A song's key refers to the tonal center, or what "home" is for the song. For example, for a song in the key of C then C Major is the home chord (also called the tonic, root, or I (one) chord). In music in the western world, most music is based on a song having a tonal center, or key. Each key has a series of seven notes that will belong to it, which are also the basis for the harmonized chords that belong in the key.

This may be veering into more of an explanation than you were looking for, but I'll keep it brief. Chords are built by stacking notes in intervals of thirds on top of each other. In a key, you come to your harmonized scale chords by starting on each successive note in the scale/key, and stacking thirds on top of this note. For example, in the key of C major the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. The I chord (which remember is the name of the key) has C as it's root note, then you add an E and a G to get a plain C chord. The next note in the scale is D - to get the next chord you add F and A to a D and get D minor. The next note is E; adding G and B gets you E minor. F plus A plus C gives you F Major. G plus B plus D give you G (add the B to get G7). A plus C plus E gives you A minor. B plus D plus F gives you B minor flat 5 (add A to make it a full Bmin7b5 chord). This is the harmonized scale - any of these chords belong to the C Major key.

So, the most common chord progression in popular music (rock, blues, country) is what's known as a I-IV-V progression. This just means the 1, 4, and 5 chords. In C major it's C, F, and G7. In G Major it would be G, C, and D7. In E Major it's E, A, and B7. And so on through all twelve keys (plus the minor keys!). You will very often see that in the last bar of a song, before it either goes back to the beginning to repeat, or when it ends, there will be the V chord, and the song will end (resolve) on the I chord - which feels like "home".

Hope this helps you out! There is a LOT more to this, but this is enough to get you going.


helps me, dig it :cool:
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Re: keys

Postby easytoslip » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:08 pm

hippieguy1954 wrote:Hey guys calm down, man! It's a song for cryin out loud. A very simple but profound two chord song. No need to get excited and angry. All opinions are good when in discussion. Sometimes ones' opinion is percieved as a direct attack when you can't hear the tone of voice or see facial expressions. It can become convoluted when a discussion is only typed and not expressed gently as it would be in person face to face. As far as I'm concerned, everyone in this discussion are good people voicing an opinion and having an interest in the music WE love...that is all it is.

Some people just sound/seem condecending when typing thier words because they are not speaking and are not especially good at it unless they are typing thier words about something technical. Therefore, when they type thier words in any discussion other than technical, they still sound the same way when typing words...technical and to the point. It is a mistake to take it personal and always, always accept apologies with an open heart!

well written and stated. I like this.
edit to add: no way I'm going and reading through all that emotion :lol: got what I needed from this topic as posted in my quotes. :thewave:
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Re: keys

Postby hippieguy1954 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:15 am

easytoslip wrote:
hippieguy1954 wrote:Hey guys calm down, man! It's a song for cryin out loud. A very simple but profound two chord song. No need to get excited and angry. All opinions are good when in discussion. Sometimes ones' opinion is percieved as a direct attack when you can't hear the tone of voice or see facial expressions. It can become convoluted when a discussion is only typed and not expressed gently as it would be in person face to face. As far as I'm concerned, everyone in this discussion are good people voicing an opinion and having an interest in the music WE love...that is all it is.

Some people just sound/seem condecending when typing thier words because they are not speaking and are not especially good at it unless they are typing thier words about something technical. Therefore, when they type thier words in any discussion other than technical, they still sound the same way when typing words...technical and to the point. It is a mistake to take it personal and always, always accept apologies with an open heart!

well written and stated. I like this.
edit to add: no way I'm going and reading through all that emotion :lol: got what I needed from this topic as posted in my quotes. :thewave:


TY! :smile: :smile: :smile:
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Re: keys

Postby easytoslip » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:25 am

Weeeeeeeed! :D
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