keys

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Re: keys

Postby jahozer » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:06 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:Octal, I think you get it!

Intermediate theory students bend music to fit the theory that they know. Stronger theoreticians expand the theory that they know to fit the music as it is written.

Dude. That is your third insinuation about your advanced understanding of theory. Its beyond bordering on rudeness.
I get your heady concepts there, brah. I disagree with them and have laid out an explanation as to why. Its not from a lack of understanding, nor am I the only one.
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:26 pm

Octal wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:You're looking at a key as strictly a group of notes. It's more than that. The tonal center matters.

The way one first learns about keys is the "first and the last chord of the song." Then one learns about "Key Signatures," and different major scales. And now that one properly understands key signatures, one can go back to the original definition--but with a more complex understanding of how and where chords resolve.

Key signatures were a transgression from the starting point, only to then resolve back to that starting point of tonal center chord (whoa man... :D ...the concepts mirror their manifestations).


Key Signatures are not Keys. Key Signatures are strictly used for Notation, and when a Mode is notated as a Key Signature it is called a Transposed Mode........


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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:47 am

jahozer wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:Octal, I think you get it!

Intermediate theory students bend music to fit the theory that they know. Stronger theoreticians expand the theory that they know to fit the music as it is written.

Dude. That is your third insinuation about your advanced understanding of theory. Its beyond bordering on rudeness.
I get your heady concepts there, brah. I disagree with them and have laid out an explanation as to why. Its not from a lack of understanding, nor am I the only one.


No rudeness intended, I happen to have a degree in music theory. Just trying to share some of the concepts I learned in the later years of study.
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Re: keys

Postby hippieguy1954 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:34 am

Rusty the Scoob wrote:
jahozer wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:Octal, I think you get it!

Intermediate theory students bend music to fit the theory that they know. Stronger theoreticians expand the theory that they know to fit the music as it is written.

Dude. That is your third insinuation about your advanced understanding of theory. Its beyond bordering on rudeness.
I get your heady concepts there, brah. I disagree with them and have laid out an explanation as to why. Its not from a lack of understanding, nor am I the only one.


No rudeness intended, I happen to have a degree in music theory. Just trying to share some of the concepts I learned in the later years of study.


Hey Rusty the Scoob, it's time for you to stand in the cardboard box again! :lol: Just kiddin and hope ya know that! Everyone should be Grateful and thankful that you take the time to share the concepts you learned.
:smile: :smile: :smile:
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Re: keys

Postby ebick » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:58 am

The "power of the mouse" gives everyone the ability to take what they like and leave the rest.
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Re: keys

Postby eric » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:24 am

jahozer wrote:
the chords of FOTM are B - A AND E. it only resolves to E in the chorus. even though most never play it or think that this is a 2 chord song, that E is there.

correctomundo, Waldo. In the mutron intro as well.


Ya , grabbing even a partial E after the A makes all the difference there
I've always thought that tune to be in Emaj , but because of the way the A and B function , Bmixo biomes the obv choice of tonal center ...

Also to inject my 2... Perhaps a simpler example of tonal centers/ keys / is "Cold Rain
And Snow "... The D functions as the IV Of A, , the E functions as the V... That's why Amaj sounds like home base all day long .

My ideas may be totally understated and perhaps too simplistic there , but tonal center to me only functions within the current context of a song and what chord is being played over . .. The ear will naturally adapt itself to hear what it believes to be the tonal center in the current context of the song as it moves along . I would agree with hozer that the Ionian is the big picture while the other modes are just more specific And usefull to change the tonal center ... I dunno
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Re: keys

Postby Octal » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:23 pm

Where is the music?

Consciousness and all of its descendants as epiphenomena from events, an ex post facto, and not the intentionality behind them. They therefore become auxiliary to actions themselves--perhaps even an unnecessary burden?

Basically, music theory is stupid once one truly understands--in a transconceptual, translinguistic manner--the dynamics of the music itself. Music itself: that's an important phrase.

If you get confused, listen to the music play.
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Re: keys

Postby eric » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:06 pm

Wow.. I don't know if any of those words are even real words , but well said....

Well said ....
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Re: keys

Postby ebick » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:16 pm

eric wrote:Wow.. I don't know if any of those words are even real words , but well said....

Well said ....
lol....yeah, as FZ would say

and all the rest of whom for which to when-so-never of partially indeterminate biochemical degradation seek 'the path' to the sudsy yellow nozzle of their foaming nocturnal parametric-digital whole-Wheat/inter-faith geo-thermal terpsichorean ejectamenta.....in serious leather
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Re: keys

Postby mttourpro » Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:55 pm

"Arf" she said.

:cool:
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Re: keys

Postby Mick » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:31 am

Octal wrote:First off: a diminished chord has a double flatted seventh. G#dim: G# B D F. A G#m7b5 (or a half-diminished) is G# B D F#.


If we are talking about 4 note chords, then yes, I agree. I was talking about triads above.

Second: If someone doesn't want a dominant 7, then they write maj7. Minor(Major 7) chords come to mind. D F A C# is a Dm(maj7). If a chord just says "7" then it is a dominant 7--regardless of the key.


Also agree. BUT, in my experience, people commonly conflate the meaning of a G7 chord with that of a Gmaj7 chord. When I see something of unknown origin, I like to keep aware that someone writing "G7" might actually mean Gmaj7. When certain players I know talk about a G7, I KNOW I have to clarify with them what they mean.
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Re: keys

Postby Mick » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:43 am

jahozer wrote:
Mick wrote: This is the same structure used in "Fire on the Mountain", which is a song written in the key of B, but using rhythm chords of B major and A major, causing non-stop arguments by some Deadheads who will swear the song is written in E.

I guess that is me...
The way I look at a good chunk of Dead tunes is that they are mixo based and start on the V. Fire On The Mtn is no exception. I think Mick is referring to an old argument he and I had a few years ago! :lol:


Could be. I have had that argument too many times to remember all of the combatants and their origins! My point that is "Fire on the Mountain is written in the key of B" actually has no argument to it. I have several books, two from Ice Nine Publishing, showing that Mickey Hart WROTE the song in the key of B. I have had seemingly otherwise intelligent players say "well, then Mickey wrote it wrong!" when faced with that fact. My opinion is that writing it in B using the rhythm chords of B major and A major makes sense to me, and doesn't seem in any way "wrong". My opinion is also that when soloing to the tune, if you want to use the CAGED positions for the key of E, you'll sound great, so there really isn't anything "wrong" there either. At one time I did a "melodic analysis" in scale degrees of the song, and it clearly was more sensical to me in B, but if it is more sensical to someone else in E, I don't have a problem with that. It just doesn't change the FACT that the song was written in B.

The point of modes is to set up your phrasing within a given key to give you a different feel.
Rider, being D C G, is the key of G but is also mixo based, and actually changes keys on the chorus.
I dont have the energy or desire to argue keys, and modes, though... Just had to chime in.


Conflating the terms "key" and "mode" also seems to be a common problem among guitar players. I didn't understand the difference myself until after I been on this board for a while. There are probably some old posts of mine out there with some pretty fuzzy thinking on the key/mode thing.
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:55 pm

Mick wrote:Could be. I have had that argument too many times to remember all of the combatants and their origins! My point that is "Fire on the Mountain is written in the key of B" actually has no argument to it. I have several books, two from Ice Nine Publishing, showing that Mickey Hart WROTE the song in the key of B. I have had seemingly otherwise intelligent players say "well, then Mickey wrote it wrong!" when faced with that fact. My opinion is that writing it in B using the rhythm chords of B major and A major makes sense to me, and doesn't seem in any way "wrong". My opinion is also that when soloing to the tune, if you want to use the CAGED positions for the key of E, you'll sound great, so there really isn't anything "wrong" there either. At one time I did a "melodic analysis" in scale degrees of the song, and it clearly was more sensical to me in B, but if it is more sensical to someone else in E, I don't have a problem with that. It just doesn't change the FACT that the song was written in B.


well, mickey hart did not write those books and i have seen many have a wrong key signature before. i went ahead and grabbed the sheet music and sure enough it is written in the key of B major(5 sharps), but had to laugh when i seen all the A# notes/chords in the sheet music changed to accidentals(naturals)! :smile: does it matter that in B major that A# is a diminished chord?

just proves the sheet music should have been written in E major with a B Mixolydian tonal center, then all those accidentals would be eliminated. the only difference between B major and E major is that A#.

but yeah you been correct all along mick, as long as you change that A# to an A you can stay in b Major all you want or is that B major anymore?

peace,
waldo
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Re: keys

Postby Mick » Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:54 pm

waldo041 wrote:well, mickey hart did not write those books


I am guessing that he didn't "write" the books, but since it is coming directly from Ice Nine Publishing, I am assuming he at least saw the sheet music before it went into the books. Most artists are pretty particular about how their creations are portrayed to the public, and I'm sure I would have checked over the sheet music if it was mine (not that I have written anything worthy of publishing) before it went out to the public, so I think it is a reasonable assumption. But, I admit, it is still an assumption.

and i have seen many have a wrong key signature before.


Of course there are tons of errors in books. I have made my living in publishing for the last decade plus, and have learned this the hard way. I think it is in one of the same books that a line in "Bertha" is written "I ran snack into a tree". But when it comes up that way again and again, and from two different publishers, I start to think that's what Mickey meant.

i went ahead and grabbed the sheet music and sure enough it is written in the key of B major(5 sharps), but had to laugh when i seen all the A# notes/chords in the sheet music changed to accidentals(naturals)! :smile: does it matter that in B major that A# is a diminished chord?


A#dim would be an inside chord to B major (talkin' triads again here). I'm not sure I understand the question. Using A major (again, talkin' triads) in a song in the key of B major would introduce only A natural as an outside note, and A natural is the dominant seventh to B major. As such, in a rock song, that works fine in my head. I may be missing some finer point of musical theory here, but I don't see how this upsets any apple carts.

just proves the sheet music should have been written in E major with a B Mixolydian tonal center, then all those accidentals would be eliminated.


It could have been written that way, yes. But IMO, the melody makes more sense in B major. From memory, and it has been a while, the melody is all over the 1-5 scale degrees of B major and there are no As or A#s in the melody.

the only difference between B major and E major is that A#.


Thanks.

but yeah you been correct all along mick, as long as you change that A# to an A you can stay in b Major all you want or is that B major anymore?

peace,
waldo


The A natural is in the rhythm only, it is not in the melody as I recall. Feel free to prove me wrong there, since you have the sheet music out. But if you would rather think that Mickey wrote it wrong, it's no skin off my ass.
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Re: keys

Postby Tennessee Jedi » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:02 pm

Interesting ... I wonder what he wrote the tune on ... Steel drums are ' notes ' right ?
I always thought he came up with the rhythm not the actual music ....
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