keys

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Re: keys

Postby jahozer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:58 am

Rusty the Scoob wrote:
Mick wrote: This is the same structure used in "Fire on the Mountain", which is a song written in the key of B, but using rhythm chords of B major and A major, causing non-stop arguments by some Deadheads who will swear the song is written in E.


Those are people who can't see past the limited world of Bach and Mozart that they were taught in beginning theory classes, and believe a key signature can only be a major or minor scale.

I guess that is me...
The way I look at a good chunk of Dead tunes is that they are mixo based and start on the V. Fire On The Mtn is no exception. I think Mick is referring to an old argument he and I had a few years ago! :lol:
To me the fact that FOTM does not fully want to resolve on the E is a device to give it a mysterious ambiguous feel.
The argument is blurred furthur by Jerry because he constantly plays a bebop scale which melds the mixolydian and Ionian scale together.
The point of modes is to set up your phrasing within a given key to give you a different feel.
Rider, being D C G, is the key of G but is also mixo based, and actually changes keys on the chorus.
I dont have the energy or desire to argue keys, and modes, though... Just had to chime in.
As far as what a key is, Stewie actually does explain it very nicely. The W W H W W W H in a major key is a set of intervals designed to create tension the further away you get from your root and resolution back to your root note.
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:25 pm

Lydian performs that function even more efficiently with the half-step climb to the V.

The major scale is just a scale like any other, we only think it's more important than other modes because Bach and Mozart thought it was. Even Beethoven was evolving past that way of thinking, and Jerry sure didn't stick to it.

Ryder is not in G. It's in D mixo. Same exact notes, but a different way of looking at it, and really it's more accurate.
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Re: keys

Postby jahozer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:Lydian performs that function even more efficiently with the half-step climb to the V.

The major scale is just a scale like any other, we only think it's more important than other modes because Bach and Mozart thought it was. Even Beethoven was evolving past that way of thinking, and Jerry sure didn't stick to it.

Ryder is not in G. It's in D mixo. Same exact notes, but a different way of looking at it, and really it's more accurate.

And this is why the argument winds on... Its semantics.
I just explained rider to a keys player who had never heard it. The way I described it was G in the verse, but mixolydian based.
Same exact notes, but a different way to say it. Until there is a key signature for D mixo in standard notation, Ill assume its in G, and look for the clues that tell me the mode is D mixo.
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:18 pm

jahozer wrote:Until there is a key signature for D mixo in standard notation,


There is. You use one sharp. (F# to be precise)

Classical composers have used modal key signatures for decades, they just don't teach it in first or second year theory courses yet.
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Re: keys

Postby jahozer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:28 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:
jahozer wrote:Until there is a key signature for D mixo in standard notation,


There is. You use one sharp. (F# to be precise)

Classical composers have used modal key signatures for decades, they just don't teach it in first or second year theory courses yet.

Or of course F# denotes G MAJOR and all the other modes that it encompasses. G Major tells the bigger story. D mixo is the fine print. One F sharp can be A dorian, B Phrygian C lydian, D mixolydian, E aeolian, or F# Locrian. I dont see how F# denoting d mixo is more precise than calling it G and drilling down to the mode. I can look at that one sharp, and know G major, but would have to figure out from the chords what mode its in. Jerry didnt stick to keys, he blurred them, and played outside with chromatic runs. He didnt stay in one mode or key.
But hey, what the fuck do I know?
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:17 pm

One sharp denotes E minor just as accurately as it denotes G major, right? So why not any of the other modes that you mentioned?
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Re: keys

Postby jahozer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:17 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:One sharp denotes E minor just as accurately as it denotes G major, right? So why not any of the other modes that you mentioned?

Because I know the modes that comprise G Major just as I know its relative minor. Again, its your starting point of G. I look at the definitions like this. Your key is a mechanism, a division of the octave. A mode, in a more literal definition, is a matter of operation of said mechanism, or "mode of operation". The octave still has the same divisions in that key, but the mode is how its arranged or operated. The mechanism doesn't change, but its operation does.
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:54 pm

jahozer wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:
Mick wrote: This is the same structure used in "Fire on the Mountain", which is a song written in the key of B, but using rhythm chords of B major and A major, causing non-stop arguments by some Deadheads who will swear the song is written in E.


Those are people who can't see past the limited world of Bach and Mozart that they were taught in beginning theory classes, and believe a key signature can only be a major or minor scale.

I guess that is me...
The way I look at a good chunk of Dead tunes is that they are mixo based and start on the V. Fire On The Mtn is no exception. I think Mick is referring to an old argument he and I had a few years ago! :lol:
To me the fact that FOTM does not fully want to resolve on the E is a device to give it a mysterious ambiguous feel.
The argument is blurred furthur by Jerry because he constantly plays a bebop scale which melds the mixolydian and Ionian scale together.
The point of modes is to set up your phrasing within a given key to give you a different feel.
Rider, being D C G, is the key of G but is also mixo based, and actually changes keys on the chorus.
I dont have the energy or desire to argue keys, and modes, though... Just had to chime in.
As far as what a key is, Stewie actually does explain it very nicely. The W W H W W W H in a major key is a set of intervals designed to create tension the further away you get from your root and resolution back to your root note.


the chords of FOTM are B - A AND E. it only resolves to E in the chorus. even though most never play it or think that this is a 2 chord song, that E is there.

peace,
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Re: keys

Postby jahozer » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:47 pm

the chords of FOTM are B - A AND E. it only resolves to E in the chorus. even though most never play it or think that this is a 2 chord song, that E is there.

correctomundo, Waldo. In the mutron intro as well.
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:52 pm

jahozer wrote:
the chords of FOTM are B - A AND E. it only resolves to E in the chorus. even though most never play it or think that this is a 2 chord song, that E is there.

correctomundo, Waldo. In the mutron intro as well.


yep, forgot it's right there in the intro as well.

~mike
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:32 am

jahozer wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:One sharp denotes E minor just as accurately as it denotes G major, right? So why not any of the other modes that you mentioned?

Because I know the modes that comprise G Major just as I know its relative minor. Again, its your starting point of G. I look at the definitions like this. Your key is a mechanism, a division of the octave. A mode, in a more literal definition, is a matter of operation of said mechanism, or "mode of operation". The octave still has the same divisions in that key, but the mode is how its arranged or operated. The mechanism doesn't change, but its operation does.


You're looking at a key as strictly a group of notes. It's more than that. The tonal center matters.

And I never play an E in FOTM. I don't even know where Jerry plays one.
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Re: keys

Postby waldo041 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:13 am

Rusty the Scoob wrote:I don't even know where Jerry plays one.


Jerry has always played the E after FOTM in the chorus.

B-------------A----------------------AAA--EEE
Fire -------- Fire on the Mountain




peace,
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Re: keys

Postby Octal » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:21 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:You're looking at a key as strictly a group of notes. It's more than that. The tonal center matters.

The way one first learns about keys is the "first and the last chord of the song." Then one learns about "Key Signatures," and different major scales. And now that one properly understands key signatures, one can go back to the original definition--but with a more complex understanding of how and where chords resolve.

Key signatures were a transgression from the starting point, only to then resolve back to that starting point of tonal center chord (whoa man... :D ...the concepts mirror their manifestations).


On a related note, a song can be in more than one key at a time. Example from one of my original songs:
C7 /// | Bb7 /// | Eb7 /// | Abmaj7 /// | G7 //// | Gdim7 /// | Dm7 / Ddim7 /
And repeat.
Notice the odd number of measures. It's in 4/4, but the phrase is 7 measures long--not 8. Your harmonic ear wants to resolve itself at the C7 (the end of the phrase), but your rhythmic ear wants to resolve itself on the Bb7 (the 8th measure). You may not notice this at first, but as you start soloing in it--and forgetting which chord you are playing--you'll notice.

After everybody's done arguing about what key FOTM is in, why don't we all yell and scream about how a C13no9 and a Am7 chord are different.
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Re: keys

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:19 pm

Octal, I think you get it!

Intermediate theory students bend music to fit the theory that they know. Stronger theoreticians expand the theory that they know to fit the music as it is written.
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Re: keys

Postby Octal » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:30 pm

Rusty the Scoob wrote:Octal, I think you get it!

Intermediate theory students bend music to fit the theory that they know. Stronger theoreticians expand the theory that they know to fit the music as it is written.

And yet I still don't know how to play the guitar.

Although it is comforting to know the Big Man didn't think he could play either.
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