New MXR distortion+

Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby waldo041 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:16 pm

as Brad stated.

from left to right top shelf 1-4
from left to right bottom shelf 5-8

the order is inline 1-8 and not interchangeable for both the 80's and 90's rack.

hippieguy1954 wrote:I've been looking at the pics of Jerry's rig when he was using the mxr D+ and trying to figure out what position it is in the chain. I read a few posts (in here somewhere) that mention Jerry being able to change the order of the efffects in the chain with his foot switches. Does anyone know what order he used most, when he was still using the mxr D+? Also, did he ever use the mxr before the the octave and the envelope? I've been tryin to get it straight for a while.
:smile: :smile: :smile:


here is the breakdown i see.

when he first uses the "80's" rack with Cutler switching unit in aug 79, nothing is before the 2 mutron's on the top shelf. but it wasn't very long in late 79 that he began using the Boss DS1 right after the Mutrons top shelf position 4. that was so brief by 1980 the Boss DS1 gets moved from behind to in front of the Mutrons and stays there until sometime in 1982 when it leaves and the MXR Dist+ gets moved from the bottom shelf to the top before the Mutrons. no Dist/OD on bottom shelf, just phaser and Analog delay. at the begining of 1983 the MXR Dist+ is moved back to the bottom shelf before the MXR phaser. briefly there is no Dist/OD on top shelf. but by the end of 83 the MXR Series 2000 Distortion + is placed in position 1 top shelf. the series 2000 stays there until around 1987ish. then the Boss HM2 arrives and replaces the MXR Series 2000 Dist+ sometime in 1987/88ish. but by 1989 the HM-2 was replaced with the Boss Turbo OverDrive OD-2 and the MXR Dist+ was replaced with the Boss OverDrive OD-1. in 1992 the EQ's are added to each shelf after the Boss OD's.

peace,
waldo
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:49 pm

That's great Waldo, but can you provide a more detailed timeline for us? :lol:

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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby deadagainband76 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:16 am

yea kinda vague,lol.
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby hippieguy1954 » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:29 am

Thank you very much, Brad and Waldo! And wow, wow Waldo! Talk about detail! OMG! I think that is worth printing! :smile: :smile: :smile:
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby bdhact1 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:40 am

[quote="SarnoMusicSolutions"]I would recommend using "carbon film" resistors as I think that's what was in the original. Also be sure to use ceramic disc capacitors (where applicable) like the original too. And in my experience, the high voltage ceramic cap's don't always sound as good in this kind of circuit as the lower voltage rated ceramic discs. And finally, the one main tantalum cap that's near the output of the circuit, I do think that's a cap that could be causing some of this thin-ness we hear in the newer pedals. That definitely should be a tantalum cap, but I've found over the years that not all tantalums sound alike. And the other factor is that ALL tantalum cap's sound overly crispy and bright when new, and can take dozens and dozens of hours of run-time to settle in. So see if you can find an old tantalum cap from a surplus place, or if you do happen to have a newer cap there, power up the pedal, plug in the input so it's powered on, and just leave it on for a couple of weeks to really help break it in. It would break in even better if you feed it some sound source so it's actually passing audio. I can't stress enough how significantly tantalum cap's change in tone over time. Maybe that's the the issue here, needing a 100 or more hours of break in time.

I've got a home brew MXR Distortion+ with 1N34a diodes and all the other cap's are correct, and it sounds pretty much like an old, worn Script logo. Warm and full and just the right amount of fizz. That .001uF low voltage ceramic cap at the diodes is also crucial to tame the highs.

Brad


The 1n270 diodes and the voltage rating on the tantalum capacitors are the main differences. 1n270 diodes are an absolute for correct distortion threshold. The tantalum cap voltage rating should be 25v for the script logo and 35v for late 70s - early 80s Block logo. I have a switch for both on my homemade D+. 25v gives a milder/thinner Jerry distortion and 35v gives a fatter Randy Rhoads distortion.
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby tigerstrat » Fri Oct 07, 2011 11:28 am

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:I believe that it's been pretty well confirmed that Jerry's effects rack went in this order:

top left #1
top right #4
bottom left #5
bottom right #8


when/where was this confirmed? I'm always the last to know anything around here :roll:
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby mijknahs » Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:42 pm

waldo041 wrote:here is the breakdown i see.

when he first uses the "80's" rack with Cutler switching unit in aug 79, nothing is before the 2 mutron's on the top shelf. but it wasn't very long in late 79 that he began using the Boss DS1 right after the Mutrons top shelf position 4. that was so brief by 1980 the Boss DS1 gets moved from behind to in front of the Mutrons and stays there until sometime in 1982 when it leaves and the MXR Dist+ gets moved from the bottom shelf to the top before the Mutrons. no Dist/OD on bottom shelf, just phaser and Analog delay. at the begining of 1983 the MXR Dist+ is moved back to the bottom shelf before the MXR phaser. briefly there is no Dist/OD on top shelf. but by the end of 83 the MXR Series 2000 Distortion + is placed in position 1 top shelf. the series 2000 stays there until around 1987ish. then the Boss HM2 arrives and replaces the MXR Series 2000 Dist+ sometime in 1987/88ish. but by 1989 the HM-2 was replaced with the Boss Turbo OverDrive OD-2 and the MXR Dist+ was replaced with the Boss OverDrive OD-1. in 1992 the EQ's are added to each shelf after the Boss OD's.

peace,
waldo


This alone is worth the price of subscription.

Also, I find using the MXR Series 2000 Dist going direct (as opposed to the "blend") works better and I think that's how Jerry used it. Also combining distortions is a way to get the really over the top distortion with plenty of squish and squeal.
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby waldo041 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:29 pm

tigerstrat wrote:
SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:I believe that it's been pretty well confirmed that Jerry's effects rack went in this order:

top left #1
top right #4
bottom left #5
bottom right #8


when/where was this confirmed? I'm always the last to know anything around here :roll:


John Cutler himself, the guy who fabricated the rack and switcher, confirmed this to me in an email to him.

peace,
waldo
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:45 pm

St. Louis local Dead Band player of 35 years, Dave Casper in "Jakes Leg", has been using a Mutron that I found for him back in the '80s ever since then. He uses it a LOT, even where it may not belong. Dave has his own style and approach, but one thing he's found is that he likes to use a Rat pedal before his MuTron. He sets the Rat so it's BARELY clipping at all, just barely. But something about that slight clipping and peak compression helps him to get a smoother and more consistent response from the Mutron. Seeing that quite often Jerry had an overdrive or distortion pedal before his Mutron up there in slot #1, has me wondering if Jerry dabbled in the same idea for a while. Maybe the overdrive/distortion pedal helps to get a more even envelope peak response. Just a thought. I'll have to try my Series 2000 MXR Dist+ before a Mutron and see what happens.

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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby hippieguy1954 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:27 am

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:St. Louis local Dead Band player of 35 years, Dave Casper in "Jakes Leg", has been using a Mutron that I found for him back in the '80s ever since then. He uses it a LOT, even where it may not belong. Dave has his own style and approach, but one thing he's found is that he likes to use a Rat pedal before his MuTron. He sets the Rat so it's BARELY clipping at all, just barely. But something about that slight clipping and peak compression helps him to get a smoother and more consistent response from the Mutron. Seeing that quite often Jerry had an overdrive or distortion pedal before his Mutron up there in slot #1, has me wondering if Jerry dabbled in the same idea for a while. Maybe the overdrive/distortion pedal helps to get a more even envelope peak response. Just a thought. I'll have to try my Series 2000 MXR Dist+ before a Mutron and see what happens.

Brad


I've just started experimenting with a overdrive/distortion infront of the envelope last week. Interesting dynamic. Maybe it is a more even peak responce. I'm not sure yet but your a guitar player as well as an expert of electronics. I'm a guitar player that can follow a diagram and solder :lol: It will be interesting to see what you think after tryin it!
:smile: :smile: :smile:
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby jackevorkian » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:33 pm

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:St. Louis local Dead Band player of 35 years, Dave Casper in "Jakes Leg", has been using a Mutron that I found for him back in the '80s ever since then. He uses it a LOT, even where it may not belong. Dave has his own style and approach, but one thing he's found is that he likes to use a Rat pedal before his MuTron. He sets the Rat so it's BARELY clipping at all, just barely. But something about that slight clipping and peak compression helps him to get a smoother and more consistent response from the Mutron. Seeing that quite often Jerry had an overdrive or distortion pedal before his Mutron up there in slot #1, has me wondering if Jerry dabbled in the same idea for a while. Maybe the overdrive/distortion pedal helps to get a more even envelope peak response. Just a thought. I'll have to try my Series 2000 MXR Dist+ before a Mutron and see what happens.

Brad


Brad - any idea how similar a vintage Rat is to a script D+? They're both built around an LM308, but I'd assume a Rat can get D+ tones better than a D+ can get Rat tones...the Rat strikes me as being a little more versatile.

I've owned reissue versions of both and never liked them, but lately I've been thinking about picking up a vintage distortion of some sort...and these two are the classics, and aren't too expensive.
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:31 am

The MXR is a 741 opamp pedal, and the Rat is a LM308 based pedal. Not hugely different sounding opamps, but there's something there. Both are trashy, lo-fidelity, slow-slew-rate, noisy opamps. Both pedals use clipping diodes to ground to generate the distortion and that defines them as "distortion" pedals as opposed to "overdrive" pedals that use the diodes in a different way for clipping.

The main difference I hear is the general EQ (aka: voicing) of the two pedals. The MXR has a very flat response, a very transparent pedal. The Rat does more bass dumping and EQ shaping, and also has a different top end character that can be controlled by the "filter" knob. MXR+ seems to have more top end sparkle and presence. Rat has more mid-treble bite if you want it, but not as much air and sparkle.

Personally, I do like them both and I find them to be quite different. I think the MXR makes more sense for the Jerry sound with it's clarity and transparency, seems to go with his general approach. But I often wondered if the Rat would have also been real cool if he had given it time and dialed it in for what he was after.

It's hard to knock the Rat pedal. Jeff Beck and John Scofield are no slouches.

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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby claytushaywood » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:11 pm

anybody checked out the Qtron + with the effects loop? i dont know what that does but seems like it could be a useful mod. i've never tackled any mutron clone builds because i've never heard ones that are very fat and good sounding... anyone know of one? how about the HAZ mutron iii?


on this topic...
I've done some pretty good DOD OD 250 mods using carbon comps or carbon film and ceramics. Nasty begets nasty... now there's always the variable of component tolerances from old pedals, so when someone says you cant replicate the old ones... you gotta wonder. also there's a ton of schematics that are off, and variables in printed values in the period of months in vintage pedals. i was thinking a cool thing to do with building clones of vintage pedals would be to reverse engineer some of the "better" sounding vintage pedals and take into account those components that wavered a few %. along with maybe sourcing some NOS parts. does anyone do this already?
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby claytushaywood » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:38 am

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:I would recommend using "carbon film" resistors as I think that's what was in the original. Also be sure to use ceramic disc capacitors (where applicable) like the original too. And in my experience, the high voltage ceramic cap's don't always sound as good in this kind of circuit as the lower voltage rated ceramic discs. And finally, the one main tantalum cap that's near the output of the circuit, I do think that's a cap that could be causing some of this thin-ness we hear in the newer pedals. That definitely should be a tantalum cap, but I've found over the years that not all tantalums sound alike. And the other factor is that ALL tantalum cap's sound overly crispy and bright when new, and can take dozens and dozens of hours of run-time to settle in. So see if you can find an old tantalum cap from a surplus place, or if you do happen to have a newer cap there, power up the pedal, plug in the input so it's powered on, and just leave it on for a couple of weeks to really help break it in. It would break in even better if you feed it some sound source so it's actually passing audio. I can't stress enough how significantly tantalum cap's change in tone over time. Maybe that's the the issue here, needing a 100 or more hours of break in time.

I've got a home brew MXR Distortion+ with 1N34a diodes and all the other cap's are correct, and it sounds pretty much like an old, worn Script logo. Warm and full and just the right amount of fizz. That .001uF low voltage ceramic cap at the diodes is also crucial to tame the highs.

Brad

B


so tanatulums for the 1uf's, ceramic for the clipping diodes... should they all be ceramics elsewhere... or mylars above 1000pf? is there a thread on this? I didnt think component choice would be this crucial! Mine sounded pretty bad with metal films resistors and caps everywhere. along with silicon diodes, I'm getting closer now, would the green mylar caps be the choice for the in between caps?
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Re: New MXR distortion+

Postby JonnyBoy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:10 am

Better than a distortion boost to the envelope filter I found the ge7 EQ pedal tames and smoothed the overall response. I think folks would be surprised how you can change the tone of the qtron with that pedal for the better too!
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