lets talk Winter 80 Boogie tone (AGAIN!!!)

[jeffm725]

We all agree that Winter 80 was a high-water mark in tone (and playing chops). (some like me think it was his BEST tone ever, others may not think it was the best but agree that it is way up the list)

Being a Boogie aficionado I have always tried to dig a bit deeper into his tone there.
I own a Mark 2a and I have always contended that I did not think he used the gain channel on the Mark 2a. The reason I thought that was from a practicality standpoint. The mark2a was the first Boogie to offer channel switching via remote (the original Mark 1 had 2 channels,but the channel was selected by which one of 2 jacks you plugged into. Channel 1 was the Santana hot OD channel, Channel 2 was Fender clean...but they were not "switchable"). The Mark 2a had them switchable via remote as stated, however they had not ironed out the kinks yet and while in theory you now had a switchable amp, in practice it sucked.

It sucked because the clean and gain channels shared a couple master Volume and gain pots. It was (and is) very, very difficult to find a setting that is usable across both channels. If you dial in the clean to sound as it should and then switch into the gain channel the sound and settings were all messed up and you could blow your head off with volume. If you had the gain channel set to a sweet tone and switched backed to clean, the clean sound would be terribly thin and ineffective.
I think you get my point.

I did not see how Jer got around that, but he did somehow.

I have a clip here that is pretty much iron clad proof that he used the Mark2a for some serious gainy dirt. And then would flip the Distortion + on top of that for some extra sear!

I have a couple different theories about what is happening on this clip, I will say what I think it is, but I welcome others to post their opinions.

Also, what is interesting is that I had a first inclination upon first hard listen to this, which is different to what my current opinion is. So I am bucking conventional wisdom and will NOT go with my first inclination. To avoid confusion I will post what my first inclination was later in the thread.

Here is the clip:
http://phyzz.com/jeff/masterdist.mp3

Details:
First solo section of masterpiece, first changes Jerry plays with some distortion, then at 36 seconds in, a second distortion goes over the top.

The simplest explanation is the first 36 seconds are the gain channel of the Boogie and then he flips the OBEL switch on and adds the MXR D+ into the path.

Again, I will post my other theory later, but usually the simplest explanation is the right one and the above seems to be the simplest.

Any thoughts? Comments?

The absolute filthiness of this tone on top of a normally tame song is quite compelling!!!

[Grant]

thanks for the post jeff.

while we're on the subject, can someone link me to 3/1/80? was reading this is one of the best examples of this tone...

thanks

[tigerstrat]

thanks for the post jeff.

while we're on the subject, can someone link me to 3/1/80? was reading this is one of the best examples of this tone...

thanks

Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jgb+capitol&aq=f

[Emoto]

Didn't he use 2 distortions for a while?

[Chuckles]

I hear it differently. The beginning of the solo is pure octaver, to my ears....

[unnbrokenchain]

1.) That would be interesting to know if JG used two distortion pedals at the SAME TIME! Perhaps similar to Treys two tube screamer approach, where the first has 50% gain and the second with 100% gain. I set my two distortion pedals up the same way but never use them together. On my MXR distortion pedal, I set the tone knob at 12 with barely and sometimes no distortion to get a warm saturated type tone.

2.) In my recent search for a flexible and durable preamp for my rack unit I'm building, I found the Mesa Boogie Quad Preamp. Would this be the preamp for JG guys who who want a Mesa 80' sound versus the popular twin reverb preamps?
http://www.mesaboogie.com/manuals/Quad%20Preamp.pdf
http://hallgeir.no/hmt/quadpre/

The reason why I'm not 100% certain on the SMS preamp is that it only has one input and output, and with the Mesa Boogie I obviously wouldn't have that problem. I think this would sound killer with each preamp channel going to its individual side of a Rocktron 300 power amp and then out to one an E120 on each side of the power amp.

[gr8fullfred]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the Mesa Quad Preamp is well worth a serious look. 4 channels, 2 reverbs, 2 EQs , knobs galore, sounds great, mesa quality, serviceable,
stereo outputs,effects loops, recording out that can go straight to the board if you like.

Got mine for $500 on Ebay. Mate it with a Mesa 20/20 50/50 Simulclass 400 or the Mac of your choice. Pretty much nutn does what the Quad can do, and you can get one like I said for about $500.

Under rated and neglected tone monster! From clean fender to wild as you want with the tap of the foot switch. I will try not to repeat this again, but the Quad is an awesome preamp.

Also worth mentioning although I do not have one is the Mesa Studio Preamp. It is like half of a quad.

[tigerstrat]

I've said before that I thought he used the Lead channel on the Boogie on this tour. This example does sound like the Lead channel, with an FX loop kicker, containing Distortion+, and quite possibly some Mutron Octave. Definitely a "different" quality to the overdrive before he kicks in the loop at measure 5, and then hot filth afterwards.

[jeffm725]

I've said before that I thought he used the Lead channel on the Boogie on this tour. This example does sound like the Lead channel, with an FX loop kicker, containing Distortion+, and quite possibly some Mutron Octave. Definitely a "different" quality to the overdrive before he kicks in the loop at measure 5, and then hot filth afterwards.

I know youve said that before ts. You were who I had in mind when I published my mea culpa in the opening post. I never debated it out loud on the board but I always maintained an internal skepticism (especially because I have one to screw around with). You were right though, that IS the Hot channel on the Boogie, no doubt. But now that I know that, it opens up a host of other questions.

As far as the "didnt Jerry use 2 distortion"? posts (like a Trey setup)...yes we know for a fact that late 80's and 90's he did use a second distortion, but I am not so sure about 1980. I always believed that the late 70's very early 80's were just a D+.

Another intersting thing and this is why I posted this and opened it for debate and disussion, is that I DONT hear the Mutron octave at all. I didnt at first and now even though that both TS and Chuckles (and I fully repect both your ears/opinions) mentioned it so now I am listening hard for it, I still dont hear it.

Now for the next thing I want everyone to listen for. Listen to the very beginning of the clip when he is still singing the chorus. It is fairly clean, no? Certainly nowhere near the grit of dist part a and dist part b to be found later in the clip. The thing that baffles me is that you dont really hear the change (eg, stomping on a switch, or thrwoing the OBEL switch) to bring that first part of the grit in. Is he simply already on the dirty channel and just bringing up the guitar volume gave him the change in drive?

By the way, if I didnt mention it already, this masterpiece is from the 3/8/80 Stone show

[waldo041]

Is he simply already on the dirty channel and just bringing up the guitar volume gave him the change in drive?

i think he is actually in the lead channel as stated, but is in humbucker for masterpiece with the volume rolled down as stated, and then pushed for the solo to bring in the grit.

peace,
waldo

[Emoto]

Which Boogie did he have?

[tigerstrat]

Another intersting thing and this is why I posted this and opened it for debate and disussion, is that I DONT hear the Mutron octave at all. I didnt at first and now even though that both TS and Chuckles (and I fully repect both your ears/opinions) mentioned it so now I am listening hard for it, I still dont hear it.

Now for the next thing I want everyone to listen for. Listen to the very beginning of the clip when he is still singing the chorus. It is fairly clean, no? Certainly nowhere near the grit of dist part a and dist part b to be found later in the clip. The thing that baffles me is that you dont really hear the change (eg, stomping on a switch, or thrwoing the OBEL switch) to bring that first part of the grit in. Is he simply already on the dirty channel and just bringing up the guitar volume gave him the change in drive?

Chuckles said he thinks he might start w/ the Octave and brings in Lead Ch. for the bump. I have the opposite view- that it sounds like he is playing the whole song in Lead Ch, turns up his guitar output for the start of the solo (as he did for every solo pretty much), then adds the Dist + Oct(subtle) right at measure 5.

[keirweir]

I have been doing some experimenting with my tone knob with distortion and I can get a very similar tones.

Do I hear is a slight gain in treble or tone and in volume at that 36 second mark?

[tcsned]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the Mesa Quad Preamp is well worth a serious look. 4 channels, 2 reverbs, 2 EQs , knobs galore, sounds great, mesa quality, serviceable,
stereo outputs,effects loops, recording out that can go straight to the board if you like.

Got mine for $500 on Ebay. Mate it with a Mesa 20/20 50/50 Simulclass 400 or the Mac of your choice. Pretty much nutn does what the Quad can do, and you can get one like I said for about $500.

Under rated and neglected tone monster! From clean fender to wild as you want with the tap of the foot switch. I will try not to repeat this again, but the Quad is an awesome preamp.

Also worth mentioning although I do not have one is the Mesa Studio Preamp. It is like half of a quad.

Those Mesa preamps are nice. I used to use an old Studio Preamp and it was great - I have a rack mounted V-Twin that's pretty sweet too - I love the gain/clean channel blend feature - not very Jerry but very cool. I have an SMS preamp which I totally love - when I get a guitar that is set up more like Jerry's I'll give them an A/B test. I use my Mark III for power.

[schmidtz]

I just picked up a MesaBoogie Nomad Head for cheap on Ebay, and it can really get close to that fine toothed grit that I hear on the After Midnight JGB album. I have heard that the Nomad was not very desirable tone wise, but I sure dig it.