My Garcia rig -> Epic Diatribe -> Other Stuff

Postby playingdead » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:55 am

myoung6923 wrote:Is this Jason Lee?


LOL

On certain tunes in that era -- Big Railroad Blues is among them, as is Cumberland Blues and some other cowboy tunes -- I'm convinced Jerry switched from the middle pickup single coil to the bridge pickup as a humbucker. The DiMarzio Super 2 will give you a very fat, crackling sound if you do that.
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Postby mikepand » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:05 am

I would try different pickups than EMG's. I have a Les Paul that I just bought off of eBay recently. It came with EMG's and while they sound good for heavy grungy stuff they do not fair all that well with the dead stuff. I don't have the knowledge to tell you why but I hope that helps a little.
I am eBaying for some stock Gibson pickups for mine as well.......
2nd, take your ax to a guitar tech and have him take a look-see. I love my guitar tech.

good luck.
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Postby pappypgh » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:56 am

Lindy Fralin - pickup MASTER.

GREAT PHAT TONES - GREAT PHASE TONES....


www.fralinpickups.com
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"Once in awhile, you can get shown the light in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." - R. Hunter

"If we had any nerve at all, if we had any real balls as a society, or whatever you need, whatever quality you need, real character, we would make an effort to really address the wrongs in this society, righteously." - Jerry Garcia
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Phat sounds

Postby Uncle Melty » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:09 pm

My Les Paul is set up with popup pots to that I can make them single coil and I have tried the Modulus with and without a fresh battery. The Modulus signal strength producing such harsh sound is one problem, but I am REALLY thinking that the issue on the Big RR sound is in settings and effects. My amp which is giving me problems is a rarity - a MusicMan Twin hybrid with tube preamp and solid state main on each of the two channels. The speakers are old and so changing them out plus a good cleaning might be all that's required to return it to the sound I used to have. It has an onboard phasor instead of onboard distortion, and I do believe the onboard reverb doesn't work. But I put all my spare money into frivolous stuff like shoes for the kids and all so I don't even have a repair budgeted.

What I was thinking about the sound was that there was probably some compression or something. Being mostly illiterate about guitar gear and stuff is a handicap in even asking for your help. But what I am talking about is wanting the setup to grab a note, make the tonal changes, and then send it out. So far so good. But I would like it to do TWO notes at the same time, and it's like the effects take the two notes as a unit and fuzz THAT, and the net result is a fuzzed chord rather than two fuzzed notes or three or whatever. It becomes much more a SPLASH of "A major" thrown across the audio canvas rather than two or three notes all fattened but emerging as discreet discernable tones.

So tell me folks, if you walked into a music store and grabbed a Les Paul off the wall and you had to play through a plain old fender twin, what would you do as far as settings and effects to try to get that sound that you could do the hook line at the end of each line sung, and then also be able to hit chords that would sound good. I am pretty sure Jerry wasn't making pickup changes or channel changes that fast.

I'll post some pix of my guitars if you want to see them. I wasn't even sure there was going to be any traffic through this thread. I've been deep undercover in the straight world for years and it just felt GREAT to have you pop up and talk back at me. I miss the tribe.

My daughter is a singer though, and so the music never stopped and is starting a new chapter with my sweet 16 singing along.
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Postby playingdead » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:43 pm

Hmm ...

Bridge pickup on the Les Paul, tone control probably pretty much wide open ...

Set the Twin treble on 8, mids dimed, bass on 3 or 4, add a little reverb, but not too much. Try it with and without the bright switch on.
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Postby Hamstrungrevolution » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:55 pm

FairTheeWell wrote:Welcome Vic!!! 8)


I have to be honest...I almost wet myself looking at your rig!



same here man that is one sexy setup
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Postby paulinnc » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:10 pm

myoung6923 wrote:Is this Jason Lee?


I almost spit water all over my laptop I laughed so hard when I saw this post.
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Postby playingdead » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:15 am

Probably oughta update it seeing as the photo's changed ...

It's now:

Groove Tubes Trio
Real Tube Reverb in the effects loop
Crown XLS 402 power amp

Cleaner and quieter than the old Twin, not quite as warm, but there is so much power and headroom now it's ridiculous!

And I love the other two channels on the Trio for playing other styles outside the Dead band.
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Postby bucketorain » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:30 am

question, what were you using the Holy Grail for when you have the Twin and a Real Tube?
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Postby playingdead » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:44 pm

bucketorain wrote:question, what were you using the Holy Grail for when you have the Twin and a Real Tube?


I keep it on the pedalboard strictly as a backup. I had the reverb go out on the Twin head one time, and if my power amp or preamp ever go down, I carry a 100 W Crate Powerblock solid state mini head, but it has no reverb onboard.


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Postby bucketorain » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:38 am

got it..thanks!
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Re: Phat sounds

Postby tigerstrat » Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:30 am

Uncle Melty wrote: My amp which is giving me problems is a rarity - a MusicMan Twin hybrid with tube preamp and solid state main on each of the two channels.


I think you have it reversed (unless yours is an ULTRA rarity) : Musicman hybrid models I've ever seen are SS pre w/a quad 6L6 tube power section- exactly the reverse of a Garcia type rig.
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
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Postby jeffm725 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:07 am

vic,
beautiful! You know how I feel about your rig and tone.
Anyway, I am intrigued by the order of effects in your loop chain and was wondering if you would expand on your reasoning for their placement.

Most notably, seeing the octave so far down in the chain (conventional wisdom usually places it 1st or near the top, no?). Do you use the Qtron and Octave together much? (eg. Stranger) I can only get the "sound" by putting the octave in front of the Q-tron (actually I use an Ibanez AF-9)...Also I find it interesting on the phaser placement so early in the chain. Again, C.W. puts a phase type effect near the end, but before the delays. Thoughts/reasons for that placement?

I am just really curious, because you really nail the tones and you can't argue with the results. I was wondering the logic and testing that went into your effect order determinations.

Also, you mention that you use the GE7 "flat" to give a boost to your "non-looped" signal. Am I to assume then that there is a fairly significant difference between your output signal in-loop and then out of loop? Is the In-loop signal hotter?
On just a simple assumption you would think out of loop would be hotter just because it is not being routed to a bunch of stomps.

On my setup (I have a CAE CB-1 buffer) the loop and non-loop outputs are practically identical.



Just as a reference point for this discussion here is my chain order:
In Loop
OC3 octave>Ibanez AF9 (auto filter)>TS808**> mxr Distortion + **>Phase 100 **> Ibanez AD80 Delay clone ** >Boss TU2 Tuner

** The TS808 is built from scratch by me including the circuit board, Built with what is commonly referred to as the "silver mod"
** The Distortion + is from the BYOC kit
** The phase 100 is from a schematic at general Guitar gadgets (I built it before the kit was available, wish I waited for the kit! This was a tough build, second only in difficulty to the Mutron 3 clone the -"Neutron-" that I have been debugging for 2 years!)
** AD80 is from BYOC kit, a just wonderful sounding delay.



Anyway, just curious on the order you use.

By the way, you should see my new Bobby rig! I will post pics when I can get my camera working again, but I went a little nuts :-) Would love to play again sometime...if you ever need a fill-in. That was a blast last year in NYC.

I have a whole complete seperate Bobby Rig (for Shakedown) and Jerry rig (for L.O.J). the only common point bettween the 2 rigs is the hard trucker style cab, but I swap the speakers (Tone Tubbies for the weir rig, E-120's for the Jer rig). I love the front loading ability of the Hard Trucker style cabs, makes speaker swapping a cinch. 5 minutes!
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Postby tigerstrat » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:29 am

I'm just as curious as you about the odd effects order, but I think I' can straighten you out on this:
Also, you mention that you use the GE7 "flat" to give a boost to your "non-looped" signal. Am I to assume then that there is a fairly significant difference between your output signal in-loop and then out of loop? Is the In-loop signal hotter?
On just a simple assumption you would think out of loop would be hotter just because it is not being routed to a bunch of stomps.


My own assumption on the GE7 is that he just wants to be able to boost on demand w/o switching-IN the entire loop.
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
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Postby playingdead » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:53 pm

Always happy to pontificate ... LOL

Actually, it's all about to change (again) because I just picked up a preowned GCX and Ground Control system, so everything will be on its own bypass loop now.

But ...

Some of the thought I gave to the order went according to which effects are used simultaneously. Some of it is just more convenient on the pedalboard for space reasons.

For example, on Feel Like a Stranger for the first verses, I use the Q-Tron and the Octave together; for the second verses, just the Octave, which is the way ol' Jer typically did it. After experimenting with it, I found that I liked the Octave after the Q-Tron.

The wah is not in the loop at all, so my signal goes first to the Q-Tron, then to the OD-2r, then the Phase 100, then the Octave, Delay, EQ.

I like the Phase 100 after the OD-2r better when they are used together (Far From Me, Not Fade Away sometimes), but on the rare occasions when I use both the OD-2r and the Octave together (I do that after New Speedway Boogie sometimes for a really fat sounding overdrive), I like the overdrive before the Octave. So that sort of set up that particular order, with the phase in between the Q-Tron and the Octave, but they are never used together anyway.

So, for me, it's best:

Q-Tron -> Octave

OD-2r -> Phaser

Q-Tron -> OD-2r (for that Warren Haynes sound)


The delay, of course, comes last. I have been using it with the tap tempo, but the last gig I tried it with the reverse delay feature, and kind of liked it, it was pretty spacey and didn't seem to matter how fast the delay was, it just did this neat sort of cascading note thing. I may leave it like that for a while or go to a rack delay so I can use the tap tempo on the Ground Control MIDI floor unit.

The EQ is always switched on; I don't use it for any kind of solo boost, it is merely to bring the loop level (with all the pedals switched off) up to the guitar level with the effects loop switched out. Something in that chain is costing me some volume, but not really much in the way of tone, so I leave the EQ flat and just push it up a notch or two. Without the EQ on, the loop level is a bit lower.

It will be interesting to see what the GCX reveals when I can switch in and out pedals individually, or in combinations with presets.

One of the switchers I really would have liked to try would be the Switchblade, because it gives you individual volumes on each loop, but it costs a fortune.

I'm not sure whether I can change the order of the loop on the GCX or not, I don't think so, so I will have to do some more experimenting with the order, but right now I'm thinking Q-Tron - OD2-r - Octave - Phase 100 - Delay - EQ, with maybe the wah on its own loop and my tuner on the 8th one.

I'm sure I will regret the error when I am in the midst of wiring hell!
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