E120s vs Weber NEOs

Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby James-T » Mon May 05, 2014 7:46 pm

Hey cool thread. I'd have to say it's busting some myths. I've always wondered how a frigging mac could add so much dimension to the sound when after all its just adding power. I talked to our local Fender guru about this and he said Jerry would have used the Mac for the power not the tone. Case in point is Vic's setup. He's using an Fractal amp modeller and getting some of the best Jerry tones around in a professional setting. I can tell you that Fractal does not model the power amps it models the preamps (correct me if I'm wrong). I think the E120's would have a lot more to do with the tone than the power amp. Mac = super high quality. But for tone I'm sure there are other choices out there - like Fender's preamps, BGW, Carvin and so on - and there are some bad choices as well no doubt!

Anyways back onto the E120's. I like mine but its certainly not my favourite speaker, but I like Jerry's tone more from around 78 more than mid eighties so what do I know. Here's a comparison video I did for the group. I actually like the Celestions the most then the D120's then the E120. The Celestions sound very Jerry like to my ears and pretty similar to a D120, just without a bit of the "honk".

I learned a lot about speakers through my Fractal and through Vic's generosity of posting his IR's (recorded impulse responses) of his K110's and E120's. With the Ultra you can compare them to a whole host of speakers. I can say that they aren't the only choices in a Fractal platform that will get you a decent Jerry tone - but they are a good for the job - for sure.

My take on it: D120 (or K110) sounds vintage, E120 sounds modern and clinical.If you want a Live Dead, E72 or Wall of Sound tone go with the D120, if you want that mid to late 80's tone you need the E120 for sure. It becomes a matter of taste and its your playing that will effect your Jerry tone more than the power amp and speaker choice of course, but a good speaker is pretty critical.

I'm glad to hear there is lots of love for the Carvin as well. That's pretty good advice for someone who's not taken the plunge. I have a vintage BGW. Its a pretty sweet power amp to and it was like $100 on CL - a ton of power and in its day was used by many professional outfits. I can't imagine needing to upgrade it. When partnered with the Ultra my BGW went head to head all day long with my now departed 73 twin. Some day I may try out a SMS but these days I'm back to vintage fender with a 73 Vibrolux. It just makes sense as I play small venues 50-250 and not stadiums. I'm getting my Fractal dialled in as an effects processor - retiring the whole digital amp modeller thing, and nothing beats a clean Fender preamp, and the Vibrolux can fatten up enough at a not to ear shattering volume to sound decent in any setting.

Peace,

James

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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby Smolder » Mon May 05, 2014 7:53 pm

Once you get past the guitar and effects, the impact on tone goes in this order: preamp, speakers, the power amp. But the thing is, if you can't match the warmth of pushed 6L6's or their variants, your not gonna really deliver. That is, IMHO, the magic of the Mac.
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby Bobbybriand » Tue May 06, 2014 6:09 am

joethepainter wrote:I play through 2 E-120's, big part of the Jerry Tone. I'm also running an SMS through a Carvin DCM200L, and I agree with Jon...no, it's not a McIntosh, but it's also not a QSC, either. The Carvin is designed to be a guitar amp, and sounds fantastic, especially paired with the SMS. I had an mv-962, the Carvin blows it away. I'm sure when I finally get a McIntosh, I'll love it. But, I'm in no hurry, my rig as it is now is very inspiring to play through, very loud, and very Jerry!

Yes E's were a big part of the jerry tone but not nearly as sweet as the K's(jer's fav). To get the sweetness out of an E you have to have the power to open it up plus neighbors and your surroundings better be cool cause the E's will start to sweeten up when their getting 60% or more of their rated wattage. If ure runnin a pair or more a mac would be necessary. I have managed to build a vert stack of 4x12 E120s. Did all mods to my 2300 including adding banana jacks to 1ohm(used for 4x12)4ohm n one for com. I havent had the space our surroundings to fire up the mac n E's where I live now. I did however live at a cool house before that had an open field out back. I had my boy(jerryist in training) setup a camcorder almost 150yards out in the field. I ended up getting the MAC upto a little past half on the vol and when we listen to the recordings it sounded like the camcorder was in the same room as the E's except it was recorded 150yrds away.
The prob I don't like with newer amps is that they can't just be basic amplification and have one knob called Volume. Some amps have eq's,treble,mid,bass adjustments or their own made up names like on the rocktron. Aka theyre messing with the tone.
I use a rocktron velocity 300 bridged to channel one and nicely they put two outputs so I send 2 8ohm signals one to each K120 in my 2x12 vert K stack. The 300 has 2 knobs ,one called reactance which brings up low end and low mids. I leave that at zero. The other knob is called definition which actually controls upper mids and highs and you can dial in some sparkle with that signal manipulator. I use that around 4 to 6 for some added sparkle.
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby Bobbybriand » Tue May 06, 2014 6:36 am

James-T wrote:Hey cool thread. I'd have to say it's busting some myths. I've always wondered how a frigging mac could add so much dimension to the sound when after all its just adding power. I talked to our local Fender guru about this and he said Jerry would have used the Mac for the power not the tone. Case in point is Vic's setup. He's using an Fractal amp modeller and getting some of the best Jerry tones around in a professional setting. I can tell you that Fractal does not model the power amps it models the preamps (correct me if I'm wrong). I think the E120's would have a lot more to do with the tone than the power amp. Mac = super high quality. But for tone I'm sure there are other choices out there - like Fender's preamps, BGW, Carvin and so on - and there are some bad choices as well no doubt!

Anyways back onto the E120's. I like mine but its certainly not my favourite speaker, but I like Jerry's tone more from around 78 more than mid eighties so what do I know. Here's a comparison video I did for the group. I actually like the Celestions the most then the D120's then the E120. The Celestions sound very Jerry like to my ears and pretty similar to a D120, just without a bit of the "honk".

I learned a lot about speakers through my Fractal and through Vic's generosity of posting his IR's (recorded impulse responses) of his K110's and E120's. With the Ultra you can compare them to a whole host of speakers. I can say that they aren't the only choices in a Fractal platform that will get you a decent Jerry tone - but they are a good for the job - for sure.

My take on it: D120 (or K110) sounds vintage, E120 sounds modern and clinical.If you want a Live Dead, E72 or Wall of Sound tone go with the D120, if you want that mid to late 80's tone you need the E120 for sure. It becomes a matter of taste and its your playing that will effect your Jerry tone more than the power amp and speaker choice of course, but a good speaker is pretty critical.

I'm glad to hear there is lots of love for the Carvin as well. That's pretty good advice for someone who's not taken the plunge. I have a vintage BGW. Its a pretty sweet power amp to and it was like $100 on CL - a ton of power and in its day was used by many professional outfits. I can't imagine needing to upgrade it. When partnered with the Ultra my BGW went head to head all day long with my now departed 73 twin. Some day I may try out a SMS but these days I'm back to vintage fender with a 73 Vibrolux. It just makes sense as I play small venues 50-250 and not stadiums. I'm getting my Fractal dialled in as an effects processor - retiring the whole digital amp modeller thing, and nothing beats a clean Fender preamp, and the Vibrolux can fatten up enough at a not to ear shattering volume to sound decent in any setting.

Peace,

James


James you gotta open up that E120. How much power you sending it? Yes D120's (F only means they were sold in a vintage Fender Combo amp or Fender cab) are sweet from the get go and were reborn with the K series and both rated the same wattage(half an E) due to the trade embargo where they obtained the bigE ceramic mags. They say 115watts but wouldnt be afraid to throw 150 at it. JBL is by far the best of the best and under rate their speakers. I once heard that an E120 will blow around 410.
Celestion and JBL I can't even put in the same sentence. I rather have a Jenson as a last resort. Celestion has too many cheap grades of speakers that can be sold at walgreens. I've seen their supposed high end models in Fenders and they literally have half the thickness of the magnet on them just so they can fit in the combo amp behind the tolex plate that covers the tubes at the top. If you look at the same model if purchased individually the magnet is at its original design thickness but you wont be able to fit it in your fender that contains the exact same model. Get yourself a pair of K's that test good(ohm meter) and no spring noise when pushing cone in and out. I lucked out and managed to find through my cousin in texas 2 K120's Still in the orange n cardboard box factory sealed for 75 a piece. Never looked back after I played those beauties.
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby James-T » Tue May 06, 2014 8:45 am

James you gotta open up that E120. How much power you sending it?


LOL - My ears were seriously ringing afterwards. The Vibrolux is a 40 watt beast. Its friggin loud. It was on 3.5-4 for sure. But you are absolutely correct. No sweet spot with that speaker until it gets 1/2 its rated watts. The D120's will break up a bit but not that E120 without a massive mac powering it. But the guys in my band would kill me if I played that loud. Even at outdoor venues we try to manage our stage volumes. One thing about an E120. It loves guitar effects. Especially envelope filters.

Celestion has too many cheap grades of speakers that can be sold at walgreens


I'm sure that's true. If you look at the image, these are not your average Celestions. Bonified vintage mid 70's. They have the lowest power rating in the test so obviously they will break up a bit. That adds to the character. To be honest I can't tell much tonal difference between those and the D120's. I was surprised by this. They do have some sparkle to them. Both sets made it sound like I was playing through a really good fender amp being pushed to its sweet spot (I used a MXR Micro-amp set at two o'clock).

I suppose that's the point of this thread. Why set up your rig to play stadium gig's if you are a bar band? Right tool for the right job.

I have to say one thing though. I saw the Dead 100x but rarely up close. We had 3rd row in front of Jerry in Hamilton Ont, second night in 1990. It was the first time I could appreciate his back line sound. It was so different than hearing him through the PA. It really blew me away. Those E120's were pretty sweet that night - and so was the second set!

Peace,

James
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby joethepainter » Tue May 06, 2014 3:21 pm

Yep, I agree the E-120's need that juice to get to the zone. I've been running my Carvin wide open, and (sometimes) stand in another room when I'm playing! I was gonna build a 2x12 cab (using Tracy's specs from his SSP site), but I'm going with two 1x12's for my E's...more flexibility. I've got my eye on a K-110 in a nice tweed cab I'm planning on getting in the next few days...it's good to have options! I also want to say that I'm not trying to slag on anyone's gear choices, I'm just sharing my experiences with gear that's worked for me, and I'm grateful to have a place to check out what works best for other folks, as well!
:cheers:
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby JamminJommy » Sat May 10, 2014 3:12 am

Boogie Mk1 Ri, BGW 250D, 2x12 JBL e120s works well. '70 Twin through the same chain even better. Subtle, though.

A/B'd an SMS through a 250D, an Mc2120, and an Mc2300 through 2x12 e120s (Craig Marshall's "big" rig with Cubensis down in LA). The 2120 and 2300 were hard to tell apart but the 2300 was just that much there... I think the blue meters change the tone! The 250D was an EXTREMELY viable backup when used with an Earth Drive (and a hell of a lot lighter, too). To my ears, turning the pre-amp up quite a ways gets that '87 tone pretty well!

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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby Searing75 » Sat May 10, 2014 6:29 am

The blue meters are what produce the tone we are all after! :lol:
All's well that sounds well.
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby waldo041 » Sat May 10, 2014 9:05 am

Searing75 wrote:The blue meters are what produce the tone we are all after! :lol:


Those blue meters while not actually producing the tone, they do give us a very big clue!

~waldo
"Tone is in the instruments. Technique in the hands. Do what you will." ~ quote from some guy at the TGP forum
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby James-T » Sat May 10, 2014 11:15 am

The 250D was an EXTREMELY viable backup when used with an Earth Drive (and a hell of a lot lighter, too). To my ears, turning the pre-amp up quite a ways gets that '87 tone pretty well!


Owning and using a 250B (albeit with an Ultra FX) I'll second that. Mine was had on CL for a song locally. These are great amps. A bit obscure today, but non the less great power amps. I've been using an MXR Micro-amp in front of it. Good results.

Peace,

James
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Re: E120s vs Weber NEOs

Postby Bobbybriand » Mon May 12, 2014 9:04 pm

waldo041 wrote:
Searing75 wrote:The blue meters are what produce the tone we are all after! :lol:


Those blue meters while not actually producing the tone, they do give us a very big clue!

~waldo


And people asked why I had enough power for a stadium. Gotta tap into those blue screens.
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