Alligator Relic clone?

Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:51 pm

I'll try to cover the last two post from tcsnet & T14...

Break-angle Continued. So if we hold true that the scale length is a fixed distance. We also understand that the string wire must be tensioned to a degree such that the open string produces sound in proportion to A=440. I think we can also agree that when the instrument is fretted there will be some minute amount of movement through the nut & saddle. Since the primary harmonic interval on a non-fretted plucked string is dependent on the scale length, we can presume that the guys over at TGP are correct (within my ability to reason it)...That the travel of the string in front of the nut, and in back of the bridge primarily affects the perception of the fingers to elasticity or "sponginess" in the playable action. This, of course, can be further affected by neck relief & setup.

The string, in an ideal universe, would be stretched perfectly between two points. In that same ideal universe there would be no need of mechanical attachment or tensioning. When plucked the string could oscillate infinately at our desired frequency ...because we're also in a vacuum...and then sound would have no medium to travel through...but I've digressed.

This is relevant to the greater question of how strings break over a harmonica bridge. I bet Waldo knows if the strings on the Irwin instruments touched bridge. I may even have a picture at home of Rosebud. I attempted to setup the Tiger action on this guitar
Image built by AO. As I approached 7/64" posted action, the impact on the back of the bridge was dramatic. I did it in a rush. I was trying to do some work for Pete B. on his Strat and wanted to hand him an OBEL guitar to use in it's place. Bad move. Much learned. Intonation horribly off. Oh well ...live & learn. I've been studying intonation & the physics of intonation ever since.

My current take is that I'd definately prefer to have the strings terminate in the stop tail and the tuners, only touching the nut & saddle in between. The mechanical force of strings laying on the back of a harmonica bridge is considerable. There isn't any structural integrity in the two posts that the bridge floats upon...intentionally...designed to transmit energy into the guitar top. A trusted luthier buddy once told me that the original tune-o-matic design on old LP's was really the best. Posts into wood, withough the machined posts. An induced downward force from strings can actually tilt the bridge.

Is that tilt beneficial or detrimental? If you're string slot is correct then drag may be reduced by the tilt. What if the saddles were never filed? Oftentimes folks leave those little "V" slots as new, expecially on a plated bridge. If you're not filed, now you'll see a new vector. The break down to the stop-tail helps keep the strings in the slots. The saddles themselves are also tapered toward the stop-tail. All in all it's probably moot, as the force vector is still downward toward the guitar top.

I guess the biggest issue then is dampening. Are the strings dampened or hamonics reduced by those things which limit the string after the nut or saddle?

The whole organism is like an aroused lover when it's all vibrating together. Anything which might impede that experience I would deem undesirable.

I'll have to check my logic on this post later in the day. Fires are burning at work, and I have to go be a production manager now.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby jeager » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:58 pm

Interesting thoughts here from all. One thing I have noticed about intonation with strats is that open d chord for example can sound a bit sour no matter what. I had Andrew Olson do the Buzz Feighton tuning system for me when he put my guitar together and I have to say it works really nicely. Bill Frisell plays various Telecasters much of the time and has commented that he developed his neck vibrato technique in response to intonation issues really... any you guys listen to Frisell, he is great, gotta love a Jazz player that does Dylan tunes.

The comments above about not being able to get away with lots of pentatonic noodling on strat seem to ring true to me. I recently picked up a really cool 24 3/4 scale guitar (used Walker Special) thats more in the Gibson tradition and found right away that I could make simpler stuff sound more powerful ... the skinny strings produce much fatter notes but the low notes just don't have that snap and growl you get from a 25 1/2 inch scale... of course it is a great guitar but I still gravitate to my modified Strat, I do love the Gibson style bridge on the Walker special so I totally get where Jerry was coming from. Combine what you like from both. I read in these pages that Jerry felt Alligator actually lost some its mojo when they put the new bridge on it. Though I have never seen a picture of it with out that hack job bridge. They would have needed to change the neck angle and that might have messed things up a bit.

Anyone want a really nice deal on a Scott Walker Special. Chambered body, beautiful flame maple top with red burst. Its got an OBEL too?

I want to build a Telecaster , or maybe a new take on Alligator actually...
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby waldo041 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:02 pm

zambiland wrote:
waldo041 wrote:The string tension is derived from the bridge and stoptail including the custom string tree/bar across the low E,A,D,G strings. Fender already had a tree on the B and high E. But the other was used to simulate the headstock angle of a Gibson. So the hardtail bridge and modified headstock string tree were to adjust for string tension.

Check out my Rosebud info for the spacings your after.


~waldo

This has been discussed all over the web and off the web, and it's been determined pretty conclusively that string tension is determined by scale length and while other factors can affect the feel of the instrument, it doesn't change the actual tension for a given gauge of string.

http://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm


I apologize for mixing the 2 type of guitar string tensions up, i obviously have thrown a couple off here. In my original post i stated that he opted for the 25 1/2 Strat scale length which does require a certain tension to acquire the correct note from the inside of the nut to bridge saddle. But the tension i am referring to is the one that is made by the neck angles and length of strings after the nut and bridge that DOES alter the response of those notes. This tension is derived from the downward force applied to these two pieces. Gibson had a neck angle that causes the tension of the string to be forced down more into the nut then a stock strat. This can make the strings snappier and have more sustain, or with less, the opposite effects can happen. Similar attributes can be had by the length of string after the nut or bridge. A Strat uses 6 inline tuners with the high E string being the longest causing a different tension then the 3 & 3 gibson type headstock where the high E string length is much shorter. If any Strat owner wants to test some of the out this out simply remove the strings from their string trees, tune up and test out the difference. Someone with a better physics background can explain better then me, but i hope i have made my statement a little more clear. This is not a perception but a real factor in a guitars makeup.

Hey Marty, here is Jerry's Tiger bridge taken from it when Irwin did the refinish to it in 1990. I think your question is answered in this photo.

Image


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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby tatittle » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:43 pm

I was just going to address the Fender to Gibson string tension posts so thanks for the clarification. Gibsons have lower tension because the length the string spans is shorter; this is why it is easier to bend strings on Gibsons. An old guitar guy told me increasing the break angle (string thru v. topload, trees etc.) effectively lengthens the string. Perhaps the topload works towards the Gibson tension figure, but the bar/trees would go in the opposite direction away from that figure? In any case, the differences are far too pronounced btw scale lengths for any of these things to make a big difference to my hands.

Jerry bridge:
It looks like there may be slots where the strings hit the edge of the bridge on the way to the saddles (middle strings anyway).
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby waldo041 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:57 pm

tatittle wrote:I was just going to address the Fender to Gibson string tension posts so thanks for the clarification. Gibsons have lower tension because the length the string spans is shorter; this is why it is easier to bend strings on Gibsons. An old guitar guy told me increasing the break angle (string thru v. topload, trees etc.) effectively lengthens the string. Perhaps the topload works towards the Gibson tension figure, but the bar/trees would go in the opposite direction away from that figure? In any case, the differences are far too pronounced btw scale lengths for any of these things to make a big difference to my hands.

Jerry bridge:
It looks like there may be slots where the strings hit the edge of the bridge on the way to the saddles (middle strings anyway).


The bar/trees on a Strat are not to lengthen the string to any significant degree, they are used to put more pressure at the nut increasing sustain or a tighter string. The actual poundage needed to get the string to pitch does not change, just the force/tension that is applied to the nut and/or bridge. Also, the length of string will spread the pounds it takes to get a string to pitch across the entire string, so if you have a shorter string verses a longer one, it will play a part in the sonic output as well. If none of this mattered then there would only be one style of guitar. It is not all about how much you can or can't bend the strings, although that is a part of it. :cool:

waldo
Last edited by waldo041 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby TI4-1009 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:10 pm

waldo041 wrote:Image

~waldo


WOW!

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:54 pm

Waldo…please send me that photo, if you're willing. Holy F$%K! That is cool.

Let me start by saying that we are in agreement on the part the neck and break angles play. My post earlier was in a bit of a flurry. I know what I meant, but may have not conveyed it. And I was pondering while typing. Never a brilliant move.

Now… for the questions:

1) Do you have that bridge, or did you get Doug Irwin to take that photo for you? It is…incredible.
2) If you do own it, can you please send me a sample of whatever biological matter is imbedded in the threads? I believe a contribution of that substance to my particular biome will make me …"The Greatest Jerry Mimic Ever!." HooHoooHaaaHaaaaHaaaaaaaaa!

:smile: :smile: :smile:

Seriously. That is amazing. That is some serious Indiana Jones-ing there!!!
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:21 pm

http://www.herbgreenefoto.com/gallery/56340-jerry-s-guitars

It certainly appears as though the strings are hitting here. My guess is this photo was taken before the rebuild. The corrosion is consistent on the top of side of the bridge on this and on Herb Green's Wolf photo.

http://www.gdao.org/zoom?ark=ark%3A%2F38305%2Fg4pg1qmg%2Fis%2F1&id=834997&c=0
Provenance for Mr. Wald's photo…as if it needed any.

I've now just realized I've participated in completely sending this thread sideways.
Sorry to any who have taken offense.
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby tatittle » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:22 pm

""" I've now just realized I've participated in completely sending this thread sideways.
Sorry to any who have taken offense. """

I think that spontaneity is one of the pillars of the Dead, no? And one has to have the freedom and individual liberty to do so, or else we preempt epiphanies and adventures beyond our ourselves/comprehension; like the Wolf bridge photo revealed. :thewave:
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby tatittle » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:10 pm

Hey Now, Thanks so much for the Rosebud info page W! Of all the webpages and posts of yours I have learned from, I had never encountered this page before. May be because my attn. is always geared towards earlier guitars. It looks like the total string spacing is even tighter than a modern Fender Strat. I think Charvels have 2 1/16" and this is even tighter than that :shock: So I take it he had regular spaced Super2's in this one anyway? Were they all that spacing? Note to self: don't mix-up denominators :?
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby waldo041 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:44 pm

Before Tiger was refinished The Tiger inlay was orange and white, after the refin it was all white.

And yes, those are Jerry's spec's for his guitars.

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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:43 am

mgbills wrote:Waldo…please send me that photo, if you're willing. Holy F$%K! That is cool.


Right click, "Save Picture As"
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby TI4-1009 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:48 am

mgbills wrote:I'll try to cover the last two post from tcsnet & T14...

Break-angle Continued. So if we hold true that the scale length is a fixed distance. We also understand that the string wire must be tensioned to a degree such that the open string produces sound in proportion to A=440. I think we can also agree that when the instrument is fretted there will be some minute amount of movement through the nut & saddle. Since the primary harmonic interval on a non-fretted plucked string is dependent on the scale length, we can presume that the guys over at TGP are correct (within my ability to reason it)...That the travel of the string in front of the nut, and in back of the bridge primarily affects the perception of the fingers to elasticity or "sponginess" in the playable action. This, of course, can be further affected by neck relief & setup.

The string, in an ideal universe, would be stretched perfectly between two points. In that same ideal universe there would be no need of mechanical attachment or tensioning. When plucked the string could oscillate infinately at our desired frequency ...because we're also in a vacuum...and then sound would have no medium to travel through...but I've digressed.

This is relevant to the greater question of how strings break over a harmonica bridge. I bet Waldo knows if the strings on the Irwin instruments touched bridge. I may even have a picture at home of Rosebud. I attempted to setup the Tiger action on this guitar
Image built by AO. As I approached 7/64" posted action, the impact on the back of the bridge was dramatic. I did it in a rush. I was trying to do some work for Pete B. on his Strat and wanted to hand him an OBEL guitar to use in it's place. Bad move. Much learned. Intonation horribly off. Oh well ...live & learn. I've been studying intonation & the physics of intonation ever since.

My current take is that I'd definately prefer to have the strings terminate in the stop tail and the tuners, only touching the nut & saddle in between. The mechanical force of strings laying on the back of a harmonica bridge is considerable. There isn't any structural integrity in the two posts that the bridge floats upon...intentionally...designed to transmit energy into the guitar top. A trusted luthier buddy once told me that the original tune-o-matic design on old LP's was really the best. Posts into wood, withough the machined posts. An induced downward force from strings can actually tilt the bridge.

Is that tilt beneficial or detrimental? If you're string slot is correct then drag may be reduced by the tilt. What if the saddles were never filed? Oftentimes folks leave those little "V" slots as new, expecially on a plated bridge. If you're not filed, now you'll see a new vector. The break down to the stop-tail helps keep the strings in the slots. The saddles themselves are also tapered toward the stop-tail. All in all it's probably moot, as the force vector is still downward toward the guitar top.

I guess the biggest issue then is dampening. Are the strings dampened or hamonics reduced by those things which limit the string after the nut or saddle?

The whole organism is like an aroused lover when it's all vibrating together. Anything which might impede that experience I would deem undesirable.

I'll have to check my logic on this post later in the day. Fires are burning at work, and I have to go be a production manager now.
Peace
M


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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby tatittle » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:33 am

Whats you're vector Victor?
:lol:
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Re: Alligator Relic clone?

Postby mgbills » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:03 am

Point taken T. I hope.

But another thing I find interesting is the saddle compensation. The low E is pulled back as one would expect...but look at the G saddle.

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