Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings, nut & bridge?

Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings, nut & bridge?

Postby Jon S. » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:43 pm

02-28-14: Edited title to include "nut and bridge" as the thread has gone into those dimensions/measurements, too.

Both Dozin's and Wald's sites say the neck and middle PUP are 10/64" from the strings, and the bridge PUP 14/64" away. I finally got around to comparing these measurement to my own J-caster's and I ended up having to raise the PUPs on mine considerably to get there. And now the PUPs look closer to my strings than I almost ever place my PUPs. Are these measurements for sure correct?
Last edited by Jon S. on Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby strumminsix » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Jon S. wrote:Both Dozin's and Wald's sites say the neck and middle PUP are 10/64" from the strings, and the bridge PUP 14/64" away. I finally got around to comparing these measurement to my own J-caster's and I ended up having to raise the PUPs on mine considerably to get there. And now the PUPs look closer to my strings than I almost ever place my PUPs. Are these measurements for sure correct?


Distance is usually measured when the last fret is fretted.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby mgbills » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:41 pm

And I've been wondering if the figures are transposed. Wouldn't make more sense to have the humbucker closer & the single-coil farther away?
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby mijknahs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:59 pm

I remember talking to Doug Irwin about 15 years ago and he was saying how Jerry said the pickups still should be moved a little bit closer to the strings. Basically Jerry like to have the pickups very close to the strings for a hotter output. I like them about an Adamas pick's thickness from the string when fretting the highest fret.

The bridge pickup is probably farther away since you get more volume in series mode. Jerry probably wanted to switch from single coil middle to series bridge and still have the volume about the same. Just my guess.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby Jon S. » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:18 pm

strumminsix wrote:Distance is usually measured when the last fret is fretted.

If this is the case here, it would = mystery solved. Does anyone know for certain? It would be nice to know at least before my next band practice so I don't accidentally kill my bandmates! :lol:

P.S. My quick Google research found some builders that specify measuring after fretting the last fret but by no means all. Some say measure with no fretting and I even found one saying to first fret the 12th fret. So it would be nice to know from someone who truly is certain what the deal is with the measurements on the Dozin and Wald Electronics pages. Thanks again!
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby waldo041 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:05 pm

Those measurements were taken by Gary Brawer, and relayed in that interview. they do not take into account that there are 2 sides of the pickup either. probably should get with gary and ask how they were taken. but in lieu of that right now, i have used what i found all of the guitar pickup heights to be at the RnR HOF when we visited.

here are 3 different angles to go off of. note that the pickup heights are higher on the High E side versus the Low E side. and are some what uniform, with the bridge sitting the furthest out of the pickup ring and closest to the strings.

Image


Image


Image

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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby Jon S. » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:19 am

Awesome pics, Waldo, thanks so much (I especially dig the one where it looks like the earth is in the background and you're Standing on the Moon!). While I can't be certain, comparing my own guitar, it sure does seem to me like the strings were NOT fretted when those measurements were taken. Enough so, at least, that I'm going to test my own changes thoroughly at band volumes before changing it back again.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby Jon S. » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:50 am

I emailed the question to Gary. He replied, "I never fretted anything when I did those measurements." What a nice gesture to share his reply so promptly! Well, now, this is *fascinating.* Jerry had his pickups far closer to the strings than I ever have done with my J-caster. This is a HUGE new piece of info. to factor into my rig.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby strumminsix » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:54 am

Jon S. wrote:I emailed the question to Gary. He replied, "I never fretted anything when I did those measurements." What a nice gesture to share his reply so promptly! Well, now, this is *fascinating.* Jerry had his pickups far closer to the strings than I ever have done with my J-caster. This is a HUGE new piece of info. to factor into my rig.

Wow! Sorry to mislead in my first posts, dude.

That's really incredible. The more I think of the intricacies and interdependancies within Jerry's rig the more my mind is blown.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby waldo041 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:54 am

Jon S. wrote:I emailed the question to Gary. He replied, "I never fretted anything when I did those measurements." What a nice gesture to share his reply so promptly! Well, now, this is *fascinating.* Jerry had his pickups far closer to the strings than I ever have done with my J-caster. This is a HUGE new piece of info. to factor into my rig.


well, the info has been out there for quite a while. but those measurements only reflect the low e side of the pickup height. the high e side is slightly higher and is more uniform. you can see that in the picture looking down the neck of Rosebud. this is exactly how each one of the guitars were setup at the RnR HOF. so it is pretty consistent from guitar to guitar.

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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby TI4-1009 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:55 am

strumminsix is correct, that's how it's "usually done". This is from Fender's strat setup guide:

PICKUPS

Set too high, pickups can cause myriad inexplicable phenomena. Depress all the strings at the last fret. Using a 6" (150 mm) ruler, measure the distance from the bottom of the first and sixth strings to the top of the pole piece. A good rule of thumb is that the distance should be greatest at the sixth-string neck pickup position, and closest at the first-string bridge pickup position. Follow the measurement guidelines in the chart below as starting points. The distance will vary according to the amount of magnetic pull from the pickup.


Bass Side Treble Side
Texas Specials 8/64" (3.6 mm) 6/64" (2.4 mm)
Vintage style 6/64" (2.4 mm) 5/64" (2 mm)
Noiseless™ Series 8/64" (3.6 mm) 6/64" (2.4 mm)
Standard Single-Coil 5/64" (2 mm) 4/64" (1.6 mm)
Humbuckers 4/64" (1.6 mm) 4/64" (1.6 mm) Lace Sensors As close as desired (allowing for string vibration)


So- like anything else- you have to "define your terms".
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby Jon S. » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:10 pm

When I asked my tech, he agreed w/strumminsix, too. That's why Waldo's pix were such an eye-opener for me. While it's hard to judge from pics alone, the results from me setting up my own PUPs to Gary's measurements with no fretting on my part did look more to me like those in the pic of Jerry's guitar than did my guitar before i raised the pickups. It'll be back to the "tone lab" for me this week!

P.S. My tech, Phil Jacoby (who, it turns out, knows Gary because they were both among the first U.S. luthiers to get Plek machines) adds that because the height is impacted by the action and my action is set lower than Jerry's, I still "don't have an apples to apples comparison."
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby mijknahs » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:39 pm

Jon S. wrote:height is impacted by the action and my action is set lower than Jerry's,


That is why the distance from the string to the pickup when the highest fret is fretted is better because it shows you how close the pickups are when fretting the insturment which is what matters anyway.
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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby waldo041 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:49 pm

Jon S. wrote:P.S. My tech, Phil Jacoby (who, it turns out, knows Gary because they were both among the first U.S. luthiers to get Plek machines) adds that because the height is impacted by the action and my action is set lower than Jerry's, I still "don't have an apples to apples comparison."


Phil is exactly correct. the pickup height will only increase the volume and can do so considerably, which is a change. but the string height/action will actually change the character of the tone of your guitar.

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Re: Distance from Tiger's PUPs to the strings?

Postby mgbills » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:44 pm

Good Evening All,

Waldo some of this is a repeat for you. This past weekend I discussed the p/u issue with Waldo. Having set up 4 guitars now with the exact specs posted on Waldo's site, and looking at the relativity of the p/u heights on Rosebud, I'd be willing to bet the dimensions are reversed. To me Rosebud looks quite symmetrical, acknowledging that we're looking at a cross section of an inclined plane, and the p/u's are flat relative to that plane. My eye tells me that the leading edge of the bridge p/u is closest, and the neck is farthest away.

This would make even more sense if we take into account that Tiger has a single coil in the neck position, which supposedly has larger magnets & greater pull.

When I set up my guitars I don't fret the last fret (but I'm certainly not defending that practice). I use a StewMac string gauge to get close & then use my ear to correct the volume across the strings. Sometimes you just have to trust unscientific methods, unless I invent a string plucker that always uses the same force vector. My ear tells me that the single coil spaced at the neck at 10/64's sounds significantly louder to my ear than the middle p/u. The bridge in both single coil & humbucker mode sounds too quiet. I ride on the damn middle p/u, so for me in a gig situation it's no big deal. I really wanted to feel what the setup was like.

After much thought I've decided to reverse the dimensions and ride it like that for a while. "Rosebud don't lie!" ...and you can quote me on that :-)

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