late Jerry Tone

Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby jenkins » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:21 am

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:Thanks for bringing it back home JonnyBoy.

Indeed, on the topic of "how" to achieve that sound, to sum it up again, it really can be broken down quite simply. You can basically take your Jerry tube preamp rig, whether it's a Twin, A Trio, an SMS, etc. and instead of using JBL's (or similar), just use a PA speaker with a horn/tweeter. That's the fundamental difference. The DI sound is crispy because the signal is being delivered full-range instead of darkened and warmed and colored by a 12" JBL guitar speaker. It's that basic, really.


B


hey brad in my experience that really hasn't been the case. I got a 67 twin twin that has been preamped to the specs on dozin's page. The tone on it is really thick and full, it is a super fat tone, if you know what im saying. There's been a bunch of times that I've had to run it direct into a pa. I only did it once at a gig but for practice there was a few bit that I didn't have a cab so i ran it direct. It obbiously didn't sound as good it does through a mic'd cab but it definitely did not sound like the 94-95 tone. It was for sure a little thinner, but still sounded nice and thick.
My other preamp is a Tubeworks real tube preamp, which I think is more like jerry's groove tube pre than the actual twin.
The problem with the TW is that its hard to make the preamp not sound like the 94 "icepick" tone no matter what its plugged into. It sounds way better through my mc2120 and some JBL's no doubt, but it still needs to be set just right or it's gonna sound like 94-95.
I don't know, those vintage twin preamps just sound fkn awesome plugged into pretty much anything. They got that fat tone that is just sick.

What is the difference between the TW and the twin? is the circuit similar at all? I've heard it is the same basic circuit just like the trio is. Is that true at all? I've used a trio once and I thought it sounded very similar to the tubeworks. what do you do to your pre to fatten up the tone so it comares to a vintage? I really really want to try one of you preamps & i'm definitely gonna buy one when I got a little more loot together.

Do you really think that jerry's tone still would have been thin like that if he kept using his twins? I think his tone would have been much thicker if he used his twin's but he didn't want that tone anymore.

Jerry was clearly going for that thin, acoustic tone. There is no way he just arrived at that tone on accident, we can debate on whether or not he acheived the tone he was going for, but he was definitely going for that tone intentionally. Listen to so many roads, lazy river road and songs like that. Those songs were clearly written for that acoustic tone and Jerry's tone sounds great in those songs. He clearly wasn't ever goin back to the twin, he was moving forward. That was one of the coolest things about Garcia, he was always pushing the envelope and doing new things. The Grateful Deal was always doing something new. He was still writing incredible songs, some of his best; So Many Roads, Black Muddy River/ These songs are just awesome and they fit his new guitar tone just perfectly.
94-95 had a lot of trainwrecks but you guys should really go back and have a listen, there are a lot of gem's in there. His icepick tone sounded kinda shitty sometimes, but there were other times that it just sounded awesome, really awesome
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby The Stag » Wed Jul 06, 2011 6:58 am

i completely agree with you this is why im trying to get this sound as well as his 80s that everyone loves. Dan JR
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby tigerstrat » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:17 am

I have been listening to So Many Roads: as a matter of fact, the final one with the classic electric tone, from Deer Creek 6/21/93... just beautiful. :smile:
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby jdsmodulus » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:41 am

tigerstrat wrote:I have been listening to So Many Roads: as a matter of fact, the final one with the classic electric tone, from Deer Creek 6/21/93... just beautiful. :smile:

The Soldier Field SMR from 8.9.95 is to me really just incredible!
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby The Stag » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:07 am

october 94 is sweet best ending vocals ive ever heard from him and hes using the bolt so it has a sweet tone to it Dan JR
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby hogan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:08 am

jdsmodulus wrote:
tigerstrat wrote:I have been listening to So Many Roads: as a matter of fact, the final one with the classic electric tone, from Deer Creek 6/21/93... just beautiful. :smile:

The Soldier Field SMR from 8.9.95 is to me really just incredible!


@TS, which brings us back to the fact that Garcia's tone was not killed entirely by going direct. The speaker cabs and monitors were off the stage in '93, yet he still sounded pretty good up until Eugene and that east coast fall tour.

@ JDS, I never got all the hype of the LAST So Many Roads. I was at those shows, and even that night I thought it wasn't too impressive. Not even top 5. They had to edit the Guitar break for the box set. It's pretty clear to me that most of the mojo of that version is from it being the last one. If it happened in, say the spring of '94 during a first set, folks wouldn't give fuck one about it.
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby strumminsix » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:35 am

hogan wrote:@TS, which brings us back to the fact that Garcia's tone was not killed entirely by going direct. The speaker cabs and monitors were off the stage in '93, yet he still sounded pretty good up until Eugene and that east coast fall tour.

And maybe also that tone is in the hands and Jerry wasn't feeling it. YIKES!?!
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby hogan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:26 am

strumminsix wrote:
hogan wrote:@TS, which brings us back to the fact that Garcia's tone was not killed entirely by going direct. The speaker cabs and monitors were off the stage in '93, yet he still sounded pretty good up until Eugene and that east coast fall tour.

And maybe also that tone is in the hands and Jerry wasn't feeling it. YIKES!?!


While i'm a "tone is in the hands" guy, all the touch in the world isn't going to change the sound as much as it changed from summer to fall of '93.
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby Phil Lesh101 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:35 am

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:I'd say that with a WHOLE LOT of effort Vic was able to make the Axe-FX achieve a very good and convincing Jerry tone. It was a process, and may even still be a process of refining to some degree. Vic had to really know his stuff to program that thing to do it. It's pretty impressive.

B

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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:19 am

The Tube Works preamp is not exactly a "tube" preamp as people are led to believe. To be fair, there are a couple of tube stages in there, but for the most part it's a solid state, op-amp driven preamp with lots of cheap signal capacitors and resistors everywhere. The tone-stack is sort-of Fender influenced, but voiced a bit differently and the midrange is wired differently. The whole Real Tube (BK Butler) thing is built around "starved voltage" tubes. They only run on extremely low voltages, just enough to pass signal and generate some tubey overdrive if you want. But they run clean too. I'll admit, they do sound ok, but they're full of the solid state sound as well as the sound of excessive cheap capacitors and extra stages. I believe that the Tube Works pre also has added crispy bright stages that only add insult to injury making it an annoyingly crisp and glassy solid state tone in the end.

The GT Trio is worlds closer to a real Fender preamp in comparison. It's 100% tube all the way thru. The thing I don't like about the Trio is mostly around the relatively low voltages compared to a Fender, the numerous stages where added (totally unnecessary) extra crispy brightness is added, and the relatively weak output level. The Trio is a nice preamp with very good build quality and good distortion/overdrive capability, but nothing holds up to the higher voltage dynamic feel, punch, speed, immediacy, 3D, warm, sweet original circuit found in the Twin or similar Fenders.

The actual Twin circuit will be the warmest of the bunch by quite a big margin with the smoothest and gentlest high-treble of all. It would have been interesting to hear Jerry's actual Twin preamp in that direct setup, but all we got to hear was the Trio. Knowing the Trio's excessive and enhanced crispness, I can only imagine that the Jerry/Healy Twin pre would have sounded a lot more warm and smooth and relatively closer to his real tone in that DI environment.

So I guess that if someone really wants that DI Trio tone with their Twin pre, not only should you use a full range PA type speaker, but you may also want to turn on the bright switch. That will get you closer to the added crispy top end inherent in the GT Trio's stock circuit.

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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby gdrfk1990 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 1:48 pm

It's definately the combination of direct and the piezo fiberoptic bridge that gets the acoustic tones. Back at the time Joe the guitar player from The Machine had them installed on his guitar he showed me the whole setup before a gig and told me it was what Garcia was using at the time to get the ultra clean acoustic like tones. I think more needs to be discussed here about how much of the tone was also in Garcia's techinique I had a friend Rob that played a stock G&L through a Crate 1x12 solid state and got a fantastic Garcia Tone Every time after playing with him for a year I stopped thinking so much about gear and thought more about technique... I think that has helped more though I did just upgrade my whole rig
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:14 pm

I know it's an ongoing debate here as to if or when Jerry had the piezo saddles, so I won't get into that. That whole idea and tone era doesn't interest or appeal to me much.

But I must agree 1000% with you about the importance of technique. Getting the strings vibrating is 90% (pulled that number out of my A$$) of a guitar player's tone. It truly is. It's ALL in the strings, before it ever even reaches the pickup. The tone or harmonic content of the string is everything, and that points to technique. How you pick, how you vibrato, how you mute, where your palm lands, how much nail you use, how and where you hold the pick, the angle of attack fo the pick, how hard you pick, where you pick, what internal rhythm you're feeling in your fingers, how gently or aggressively you feel the strings, touch touch touch. It's very true. I knew a great player with all the "wrong" gear, wrong guitar, wrong pickups, wrong amp, wrong speakers, etc. that was a local or regional Jerry style guitar hero for years. And then I've also heard players with all the right gear, right down to the correct guitar strap, and they could not get a good "Jerry" happening at all. So much is in the touch, the attitude, the sincere feeling for the song itself and it's energy level and rhythmic drive.

In the pedal steel guitar world, this is demonstrated over and over again. So many players wanting to sound like their various heroes, chasing that sound with the equipment, and it always comes down to that right hand and how it gets the strings moving.

The right hand is by far the most underrated piece of guitar playing equipment in the world.

oops: sorry Vic, or the left hand in some cases...
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby tigerstrat » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:52 pm

hogan wrote:
jdsmodulus wrote:
tigerstrat wrote:I have been listening to So Many Roads: as a matter of fact, the final one with the classic electric tone, from Deer Creek 6/21/93... just beautiful. :smile:

The Soldier Field SMR from 8.9.95 is to me really just incredible!


@TS, which brings us back to the fact that Garcia's tone was not killed entirely by going direct. The speaker cabs and monitors were off the stage in '93, yet he still sounded pretty good up until Eugene and that east coast fall tour.


"Off the stage"... but possibly still plugged and miked... then removed and from the chain and the guitar signal DI'ed after Shoreline '93? All I really know is can't be blamed on the Cripe guitar, as evidenced by the JGB sounds from fall '93...
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:24 pm

tigerstrat wrote:
hogan wrote:
@TS, which brings us back to the fact that Garcia's tone was not killed entirely by going direct. The speaker cabs and monitors were off the stage in '93, yet he still sounded pretty good up until Eugene and that east coast fall tour.


"Off the stage"... but possibly still plugged and miked... then removed and from the chain and the guitar signal DI'ed after Shoreline '93? All I really know is can't be blamed on the Cripe guitar, as evidenced by the JGB sounds from fall '93...


Come to think of it that rules out his fingers too, since they sounded just fine with the JGB in 93/94.
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Re: late Jerry Tone

Postby seamones » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:30 pm

So do we know what happened in Eugene? That was the first time I heard it, was that the breakout of this new tone? Was this the GD debut of the Cripe?

I don't mean to start a futile Cripe argument, but many moons ago I did a A/B of a 93 Bolt Sugaree and the 95 Soldier Field Rosebud Sugaree ... the 95 tone sounded great.
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