Modes and scales

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Modes and scales

Postby HOWEYMAN » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:48 am

I was wondering if someone could clear up something for me. Is it common to play a mode in a key of the same name?
Example: would you commonly play E mioxylodian over a tune in E major? Or, would the E mioxylodian generally be played over a tune in A major since E mioxylodian is derived from the A major scale.
Any input would be wonderful. It will help me get a better understanding of relationships of keys and modes. Thanks.
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Postby strumminsix » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:22 am

I always thought that the E mixo was derived from the E major with just a flat or blues 7th.
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Postby sarraqum » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:44 am

This is one thing I don't get about this questions, maybe I am wrong and should do some reading up on modes and scales or maybe I just don't get it, but here goes....

The way I see it, E mixolydian is a scale thats played in this order....:
E|--------------------------------------------2--4--5-----
B|-----------------------------------2--3--5--------------
G|-----------------------------2--4-----------------------
D|--------------------2--4--6-----------------------------
A|-----------2--4--5--------------------------------------
E|--2--4--5-----------------------------------------------
.....over the chords....:
E F#m G#m A B C#m B7
......that make up the E key.

Thats it.

If you want to talk about D Dorian or G Phrygian then follow the same mothod.

D Dorian is a scale that played in this order....yadda yadda...over the chords that make up the D key.

G Phrygian is a scale that played........and so on.


Maybe I am and not getting it fully but this is the way I see it.
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Postby HOWEYMAN » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:19 pm

I understand the confusion. Let me take a differnt approach to the question by starting with a reply.

Yes, the mixo scale is the major scale with a flatted 7th.

Therfore E mixo scale would contain a D instead of D#.

Now, you are playing the notes of the A major scale but starting on E, which gives you the mixo mode.

In reference to use lets use "Fire on Mountain". Fire is in the key of E, with the entire song played between the 5(B) chord 4(A).

In the forum for Fire, it was asked what the scale the guitar solo is derived from.

The reply came back B mixo.

This means when you flaten the 7th(A#-A)in the key of B major for B mixo, you are now playing the E major scale, starting on the B note.

My question is this, would you commonly play B mixo in a song that is in the key of B major?

Play E mixo in a song that is in the key of E major?

Or,is it more common to play E mixo over a song in the key of A major, for flatening the 7th in the key of E for E mixo now gives you the notes of the A major scale?

Am I totally off base here?

Let me know, thanks
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Postby sarraqum » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:47 pm

Fire on The Mountain key..........anyone free to correct me here but think the deal here is the fact that if one was to try and come up with the chords for B scale they'd end up with the same chords as E, except for B7 of course. Once again, correct me if I am wrong here...

Now, mixo scale is made up of G mode, meaning the notes you play are:

G A B C D E F

Playing this notes would mean that a step between B and C is a half-step, and so is the step between E anf F. That gives you the following formula:

W W H W W W H, W being a whole step and H being a half step.

Now, lets throw E mixo into the mix. E mixo is made up of the aforementioned formula, the notes you get are:

E F# G# A B C# D

The bold notes are half steps. As you can see, E mixo DOES contain D, not D#.

And thats what makes mixolydian scale.

Below are all 7 modes and notes they use, bold notes are half steps:

Ionian - C D E F G A B
Dorian - D E F G A B C
Phrygian - E F G A B C D
Lydian - F G A B C D E
Mixolydian - G A B C D E F
Aeolian - A B C D E F G
Locrian - B C D E F G A
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Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:52 pm

i believe it is common.

try this;

Play a chord then try the modes seperately over the chord;

E Major

E ionian
E lydian
E mixolydian

or

E Minor

E Dorian
E Phyrgian
E Aeolian


What you should hear is that they have there own seperate flavor. Kinda the same but different. every guitarist ear is different and people try different approach's. jerry liked the mixo mode more then the ionian, another guitarist might like to try it in lydian mode. this does not mean jerry didn't use the ionian mode or lydian just that his ear took him to the mixolydian mode more then the ionian. hope that makes sense.

here is something i also learned about music and would appreaciate any feedback as to the accuracy.

people can right songs in a major or minor key, using charts like so,

Major
-I Tonic
-ii Sub Dominant
-iii Tonic
-IV Sub Dominant
-V Dominant
-vi Tonic
-vii Dominant

Key Of C
C
Dm
Em
F
G
Am
Bm7b5

Minor
- i Tonic
- ii Sub Dominant
- III Tonic
- iv Sub Dominant
- v Dominant
- VI Tonic
- VII Dominant

Key of Am
Am
Bm7b5
C
Dm
Em
F
G

But i have been taught that carlos santana writes in the mode of dorian, which is minor, and would look like this in the key of G "But" in dorian(minor) mode.

Minor A dorian

Am
Bm7b5
C
Dm
Em
F#
G

this also can be translated to a major mode like mixolydian. let's try the same major key as above C, but in C mixolydian.


Major E mixolydian

C
Dm
Em
F
G
Am
Bbm7b5



i say again i am learning these theory idea's and would appreciate any feedback as to the accuracy of them. i am sure this will confuse some people, but if you are interested in writing tune's, it may shed some light.

peace,
waldo
Last edited by waldo041 on Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sarraqum » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:53 pm

Oh yeah, if the song is played in E major then I personally use E scales, not neccessarily E mixo but also E dorian or E pentatonic or other E scales. If the key is A then its the A scales. Whatever the key is thats the scale I use.

You gotta be careful here as like you mention Fire on The Mountain is played in E key as it uses chords found in in key.

And below is a lost of keys and chords they use, notice the absence of B key:

A Key: A Bm C#m D E F#m E7
C Key: C Dm Em F G Am G7
D Key: D Em F#m G A Bm A7
E Key: E F#m G#m A B C#m B7
F Key: F Gm Am Bb C Dm C7
G Key: G Am Bm C D Em D7
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Postby HOWEYMAN » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:06 pm

Is it true that B mixo is what is used for the solo in Fire?

Is it true that B mixo is the E major scale starting on B?

Can you use E mixo over the E chord in the key of A?
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Postby sarraqum » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:14 pm

There is a B mixo scale, it uses F# G# A B C# D# E....

Most likely this is where you found that D#.

B mixo is weird, it can be used with E key as well as E mixo, the only difference between the two is that E mixo uses D while B mixo uses D#
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Postby sarraqum » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:17 pm

waldo, is there a formula you use to get those tonic and dominant and other chords?
I go by the old "1 3 5" and "1 b3 b5" and such for chord construction out of the modes, is that the same one you use?
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Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:56 pm

HOWEYMAN wrote:Is it true that B mixo is what is used for the solo in Fire?

from the consensus here, yes.

HOWEYMAN wrote:Is it true that B mixo is the E major scale starting on B?

Yes, E ionian(major) has the same notes as B mixolydian, and if you start on the B in E ionian you will have a b mixolydian scale. in fact the same notes are used in the following modes also.

the key of E major.

e ionian
f# dorian
g# phrygian
a lydian
b mixolydian
c# aeolian
d# locrian

so you can start and end on the b in any of these modes and have a b mixolydian scale.

HOWEYMAN wrote:Can you use E mixo over the E chord in the key of A?


Yes, i would also try a lydian or like sarragum said try a minor mode like dorian, but you can definately use E mixolydian over an E chord in the key of A because that is where E mixolydian resides anyway. but you can also use E lydian or E Ionian, the other major modes, for a different approach.

peace,
waldo
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Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:33 pm

sarraqum wrote:waldo, is there a formula you use to get those tonic and dominant and other chords?
I go by the old "1 3 5" and "1 b3 b5" and such for chord construction out of the modes, is that the same one you use?


wrong or right, I use these formula's for chord construction. i don't use the triad approach, but i am aware of it.

for a major key i use;

Major
-I Tonic
-ii Sub Dominant
-iii Tonic
-IV Sub Dominant
-V Dominant
-vi Tonic
-vii Dominant

now insert any major mode scale. the uppercase roman numerals denote major chord and lower case denotes minor chord. the vii(7th) is a dominant, but it is a minor7b5 or diminished.

C-------Tonic
Dm------Sub-Dominant
Em------Tonic
F-------Sub-Dominant
G-------Dominant
Am------Tonic
Bm7b5---Dominant

and for minor modes i use this.

Minor
- i Tonic
- ii Sub Dominant
- III Tonic
- iv Sub Dominant
- v Dominant
- VI Tonic
- VII Dominant

with the minor key you will want to start your chords from the Natural minor scale keeping the minor and major tonalities. notice the upper and lower case has changed from the major, but not the tonic, sub-dominant's or dominant's

so in the key of Am

Am-------Tonic
Bm7b5----Sub-Dominant
C--------Tonic
Dm-------Sub-Dominant
Em-------Dominant
F--------Tonic
G--------Dominant


- tonic chord can move towards a dominant directly.

- the sub-dominant can move either back to a tonic chord or to a dominant.

- dominant moves almost forcefully to a tonic chord


you can now try and put in the major modes for the major key and the minor modes for the minor key and come up with tons of chord progression's.

i hope someone wiser can help fill in any hole's i may have. which i know there are. this is just how i was taught.

peace,
waldo
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Postby jahozer » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:07 pm

Waldo, the degree names are thus:
Degree Name
I Tonic
II Supertonic
III Mediant
IV Subdominant
V Dominant
VI Submediant or
Superdominant
VII Leading tone

Are you naming them differently to explain their relationships?
I think they are broken up this way:

I Tonic - Major
ii Supertonic - minor
III Mediant -minor
IV Subdominant -major
V Dominant - major
VI Submediant or -diminished
Superdominant
VII Leading tone - augmented

To add to the modes discussion, check my posts in the "scales for gd songs" thread.
But I identify modes as parts of the major scale. For instance, Fire On The Mtn is E major. I know this because I can take B and A to be the Dominant and Subdominant of E major. I would identify the scale I play as Emajor, but the mode would be B mixolydian. Modes are ways to break up the major scale to invoke a different feel, but do not really go "outside" of the scale. This does not account for passing tones and chromatic runs, however.
GRATE DISCUSSION :cool: :cool: !!!!!!
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Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:30 pm

jahozer wrote:Are you naming them differently to explain their relationships?


thanks, rather that is how i was taught and tried to recite from memory. thanks for properly naming them. i name them like that to try and remember how they resolve to one another. :?

now that we have them properly named, can you explain how each one of the ones i am missing resolve to one another?

i will edit my post's with their proper name to avoid confusion.

thanks for more insight on the topic jahozer. it is appreciated. :smile:

peace,
waldo
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Postby waldo041 » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:02 pm

i forgot we cannot edit here. :D

at least jahozer covered it nicely.


peace,
waldo
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