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Musical Theory Abound!!!

Postby lyghtningod » Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:41 pm

hesgone95 wrote:
I'd definately agree though that it's not an exact science and it does depend on context or your own perspective alot of the time. And I could have a friendly debate on music theory 24-7. I love to talk about it. Peace:

:cool:
:smile:


So I talked to a professional musician and teacher yesterday. I presented him the chord in question, and we used it as an example in the jazz workshop on chord voicings and naming conventions.

First very useful data was that a perfect fifth takes precedence over any alterations. So my idea of a E7 aug wouldn't fly. Your add m6 was closer.

There was a new person in this workshop. He was 14, a piano playyer, first time there. he called the chord straight away. He read the notes and named it!

So, the E is root, the G# the third, the C becomes the flat six, as you said, and the D is the b7. That flat 7th takes precedence, so it has to be a dominant chord, and the flat six becomes a b13. So the name, if we are in a key diatonic to E, and E is the root, would be named a E7b13. The ninth and eleventh aren't needed to call it b13.

Both the teacher and this young piano player loved that they had such an odd chord to play and figure out and explain.
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Postby hesgone95 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:01 am

Interesting....just to keep the discussion going, why 13? I thought the difference btwn 6 and 13, or 2 and 9, or 4 and 11 was where you played them on the fretboard. ie., a 13 is the 6 played in the second octave of a scale. So, in an E scale starting on the 7th fret of the A string, the C note played on the 10th fret is the m6, because it's within the first octave. The scale would change to the second octave when you play the E note on the 9th fret of the G string. The m13 therefore would be played on the 8th fret of the high E string. Or a case could be made for it falling on the 13th fret of the B string, depending on how you phrase your scale. Check this out, and give me your thoughts....this is how I would play an E major scale, in 2 octaves.

E major scale, with a natural 6, on the 6th fret, G string, and the 9th fret, high E string.

-7--9-11-12-------------------
-7--9-10----------------------
-6--8-9(root, 2nd octave begins
-6-7--9-----------------------
---7--9-----------------------
------------------------------

I dunno if this diagram makes sense, but basically what I am saying is that by adding the m6 on the 10th fret of the D string it is a m6, not a m13, because you can see it's in the first octave of a 2 octave scale. A m13 would be on the 8th fret of the E string. I hope this makes sense. I'd be curious to hear your ideas/comments, and also what your friends in the class/jam session have to say. Peace

Fred
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Postby lyghtningod » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:45 am

hesgone95 wrote:Interesting....just to keep the discussion going, why 13? I thought the difference btwn 6 and 13, or 2 and 9, or 4 and 11 was where you played them on the fretboard. ie., a 13 is the 6 played in the second octave of a scale. Peace

Fred


My understanding is that the relative placement is not important. The names 9, 11 and 13, are more of a convention than an absolute placement. It is easy to grasp why there can be two tones with different functions when you run the scale for two octaves. But having the tone be in the same octave is less important than the surrounding tones.

It is the b7 that determined the numbering of the C tone. By that I mean that it would be a sixth if the b7 was not present. Once it is there, well, I have heard of a 6/9 chord, but never of a 6/7 chord.

The 6/9 doesn't have the b7. But if the b7 is there, then the tonal color of the six changes to 13.

Your explanation was fine.
I hope mine makes sense.

I enjoy all this esoterica also, so let's keep this going. The workshop is just once a month, so we have a month to come up with a good question for him.
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Postby hesgone95 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:25 am

[/quote]

I have heard of a 6/9 chord, but never of a 6/7 chord.


I enjoy all this esoterica also, so let's keep this going. The workshop is just once a month, so we have a month to come up with a good question for him.[/quote]


First off, I love this stuff too, as I said earlier. I was looking forward to your reply. In terms of a 6/7 chord I play one in one of my songs. It's an A 6/7, here is the chart:

-0-
-7-
-6-
-5-
-0-
-X--

You can see, from low to high it's spelled A G C# F# E, or 1 b7 3 6 5. I copped this chord from a Led Zeppelin song book, the big black Anthology. It was from 'What is and what should never be', I believe. It's in the verse, which is just and E9 on the 7th fret and this 6/7 chord.

Anyway, this is fun, but I gotta run to class. Take it easy, and let me know what you think. :smile:
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or

Postby lyghtningod » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:15 pm

"...it's spelled A G C# F# E, or 1 b7 3 6 5."

Having the b7 note in the chord forces the F# to become the 13th. That's what I got from John the other day.

In this case the 13th is not flatted, so it would be an A7-13th (but the dash indicates minor, so I can't use that). But that brings up a question. Do we call this A713th, A13th, or ...So I don't. Is the rule that you call it A13 only if all the other tones are there (IE the b7, 9 and 11); does it matter if the extended tone is altered?


Since John said the perfect 5 was critical in naming conventions, I'm guessing that this A chord would be A7 13, but I don't know how to notate that, so I think maybe that's wrong.

Thoughts, ideas, or rant?

Rod
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Re: or

Postby hesgone95 » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:45 am

lyghtningod wrote:"...
Having the b7 note in the chord forces the F# to become the 13th. That's what I got from John the other day.



Interesting. I hadn't heard it described like that before. I really thought it had to do with the placement in terms of the octave. I think I got that from a book called guitar players handbook. And I know it was labeled a 6/7 in my Led Zep song book. But I think this topic we've been on really illustrates how subjective music can be. It really depends on your perspective I think, especially with some of these odd extended jazz style chords. For example 2 chords from Terrapin, as named here on the site:

-2-F# -3-G
-2-C# -3-D
-2-A -3-Bb
-1-D# -2-E
--- ---
--- ---

The first one is named a D#m7-5 and the second is named a C9. if you look closely, they are basically the ninth blues chord w/o the root played on the A string. But since that note isn't played why is the second called a C9 and not an Em7-5? There actually isn't a C played in the second chord at all. And why not vice versa with the other chord? Why isn't it a B9? I think it's your perspective...and context perhaps. The C9 follows and is followed by an Fmaj7, so maybe that has something to do with it. Thoughts?

BTW, a dash(-)indicates diminished, not minor I believe. Anyway, peace.

Fred
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Re: or

Postby lyghtningod » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:22 am

hesgone95 wrote:
Interesting. I hadn't heard it described like that before. I really thought it had to do with the placement in terms of the octave. I think I got that from a book called guitar players handbook.


So there's one question for the workshiop next month. I too thought it was relative placement, but this changes my mind. It is the b7 that determines it.

C E G D we call C add 9, but when we add the bB, it suddenly becomes a 9th chord. Mmmmmm....

The second question is do we call C E G bB F a C11 or C7 11th?

hesgone95 wrote: And I know it was labeled a 6/7 in my Led Zep song book. But I think this topic we've been on really illustrates how subjective music can be. It really depends on your perspective I think, especially with some of these odd extended jazz style chords. For example 2 chords from Terrapin, as named here on the site:

-2-F# -3-G
-2-C# -3-D
-2-A -3-Bb
-1-D# -2-E
--- ---
--- ---

The first one is named a D#m7-5 and the second is named a C9. if you look closely, they are basically the ninth blues chord w/o the root played on the A string. But since that note isn't played why is the second called a C9 and not an Em7-5? There actually isn't a C played in the second chord at all. And why not vice versa with the other chord? Why isn't it a B9? I think it's your perspective...and context perhaps. The C9 follows and is followed by an Fmaj7, so maybe that has something to do with it. Thoughts?



I honestly have never heard of a 6/7 chord. It doesn't mean they don't exist. So there's another question.

I think you nailed it in one. It is context. One thing to remember is that the transcriber is also listening to the bass player. So if the bass plays D# then C that will help place the chords in context. I many times play chords missing the root, because the bass player and rhythm guitar are filling in that information, so I can add color.

The opening chord of Stormy Monday as done by the Allmans is:

--X--
--D--
--A--
--F--
--B--
--X--

There is no G yet the book labels it a G9. Taking it out of context, I would call it an E (or B, A or D) diminished. But once I heard the bass player hit that G, we'd know where he was.


I just thought of an example of an interesting new naming convention, and a resaon why you might be right about the extended tone being in another register.

In Bojangles, in C we walk down the C to Am sequence. That second form, with the B in the bass, is termed C/B. But it could be seen as a Cmaj7. It could also be seen as C add 2.

hesgone95 wrote:
BTW, a dash(-)indicates diminished, not minor I believe. Anyway, peace.

Fred


It means to flat the following note. That will make it either minor or diminished, depending on context. (There's that word again).

As always I might be wrong but I'm certain.

Rod
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Re: or

Postby hesgone95 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:22 am

lyghtningod wrote:
hesgone95 wrote:
C E G D we call C add 9, but when we add the bB, it suddenly becomes a 9th chord. Mmmmmm....

The second question is do we call C E G bB F a C11 or C7 11th?



Well, I can see a case being made for the C9, with the definition you got from the teacher, but at the same time think of that C add 9 in it's open position. The D is played on the 3rd fret of the B string, the second octave. That's why it's an add 9 not an add 2.

I was wondering too if it would be different if you are approaching the question from a piano or a guitar. Different instruments, y'know. I dunno if this makes sense, but I've always seen the piano as a strictly horizontal instrument and the guitar as both horizontal and vertical. Just a thought.
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Re: or

Postby lyghtningod » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:49 pm

hesgone95 wrote:Well, I can see a case being made for the C9, with the definition you got from the teacher, but at the same time think of that C add 9 in it's open position. The D is played on the 3rd fret of the B string, the second octave. That's why it's an add 9 not an add 2.


If the third were missing, then it would be a suspended, yes?
For me, I like the idea of chords being named according to context. Your example of the identical chords one fret apart is spot on. Just given the notes out of context, then they are half diminished/mb5. But the context shows the way to resolution.

hesgone95 wrote:I was wondering too if it would be different if you are approaching the question from a piano or a guitar. Different instruments, y'know. I dunno if this makes sense, but I've always seen the piano as a strictly horizontal instrument and the guitar as both horizontal and vertical. Just a thought.



Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand. To me the piano is the instrument best able to span the horizontal (rhythm and chords) and the vertical (melody, counterpoint)
Maybe I am defining these things differently.

I do see it as a lot easier learning harmony and theory on the piano, because the visuals are so much more straight forward.
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