Warren and the envelope filter

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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby czyfingers » Mon May 18, 2009 6:14 pm

I'm glad to see it's not just me. I really didn't want to sound like a Warren hater by starting this topic. I think he is an incredible player, and I don't expect him to play just like Jerry. I just wish he'd be more selective with his use of the env. and maybe just play a little more Jerry-ish.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby yeahmom828 » Mon May 18, 2009 8:53 pm

Sorry once again for the snark.

A cardinal rule for discussion forums is to spend time to get to know the community first. I should know this as I've been a forum moderator in the past.

When I mentioned in my first post that I've been reading online discussions about the Dead '09 tour, I should have been more specific to note that I've been reading in more than one place, not just here. I've seen criticisms at Dead.net and Archive.org and then, lastly, here. So, it was a timing thing. I'm sure that if this was the first place I read, then I would have posted my rant at one of the other sites.

Either way, no excuse, I should have read more here to see that this issue about the envelope filter means much more to you folks than it does to others.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby yeahmom828 » Mon May 18, 2009 9:01 pm

czyfingers wrote:I'm glad to see it's not just me. I really didn't want to sound like a Warren hater by starting this topic. I think he is an incredible player, and I don't expect him to play just like Jerry. I just wish he'd be more selective with his use of the env. and maybe just play a little more Jerry-ish.


See, that's kind of what I'm talking about, though. He most certainly has started playing MUCH more Jerry-ish, imo, and the use of the envelope filter is proof of that.

I won't argue about whether or not he over uses it or uses it incorrectly, as I'm not smart enough about the technology to notice. I just think that his choice to use it more than he has in the past supports the theory that he's letting Jerry in more than he had.

Given the style of music Warren's mostly played in the past, it's quite possible that the envelope filter is VERY new to him and so he's learning on the job, which, btw, is very Greatful Dead-ish of him. :-)
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby golfnutt » Tue May 19, 2009 4:50 am

yeahmom828 welcome to the forum this is a great place that allows for lots of diffence of opinions and is quite civil as forums go. I actually share a lot of your views from your original post but welcome all input on any giving subject. For my .02 worth I absolutely love Warren so it’s a little hard for me to be totally bias, but do feel the envelope was overused. All in all loved to music from the tour had an absolute blast at the LA show (the only one I could attend) and if they do it again I'll be there.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby warrenMFKNhaynes » Tue May 19, 2009 8:33 pm

I've asked Brian Farmer (his guitar tech) what he uses as an auto wah, and he told me he uses an emma discombobulator. This was at a Gov't Mule show, and I know his rig changes up from ABB, Mule, and The Dead. For example, he uses a soldano head with mule, a Marshall with the Allmans, and he uses a Fender Super Reverb with the Dead.

But I did notice him being a little too excessive with the wah when I was listening to the Satellite broadcast from the Gorge, especially during Althea. (and this is warrenMFKNhaynes talking). However when he wasn't using it, and going for more of a cleaner tone, I thought it sounded great. Not to close to jerry and not to far away from warren. And during stuff like Passenger>Bucket, there was no holding back, all warren.

But still, Warren has only played with the Dead 2 different inconsecutive years, he shouldn't be excpected to be totally in sync with them yet.

But I have the secret on how to make The dead sound 10x better...ready?...LET WARREN SING ALL JERRY'S SONGS!!! Why would Phil honestly believe that he would sound better singing eyes? And Bobby singing Days Between? What??
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby yeahmom828 » Tue May 19, 2009 8:58 pm

You know, listening to the Gorge show again, here's something else to consider:

Both Bobby and Warren are using the auto-wah, and I'm wondering if this is a contributing factor to the overall impression that it was overused, and that maybe it wasn't just Warren's fault.

Personally, as I've said, I don't find the auto-wah to be excessive. I find it a lot of fun. But, I just thought I'd throw this hypothesis out there.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby Chuckles » Tue May 19, 2009 10:39 pm

warrenMFKNhaynes wrote:I've asked Brian Farmer (his guitar tech) what he uses as an auto wah, and he told me he uses an emma discombobulator. This was at a Gov't Mule show, and I know his rig changes up from ABB, Mule, and The Dead. For example, he uses a soldano head with mule, a Marshall with the Allmans, and he uses a Fender Super Reverb with the Dead.

But I did notice him being a little too excessive with the wah when I was listening to the Satellite broadcast from the Gorge, especially during Althea. (and this is warrenMFKNhaynes talking). However when he wasn't using it, and going for more of a cleaner tone, I thought it sounded great. Not to close to jerry and not to far away from warren. And during stuff like Passenger>Bucket, there was no holding back, all warren.

But still, Warren has only played with the Dead 2 different inconsecutive years, he shouldn't be excpected to be totally in sync with them yet.

But I have the secret on how to make The dead sound 10x better...ready?...LET WARREN SING ALL JERRY'S SONGS!!! Why would Phil honestly believe that he would sound better singing eyes? And Bobby singing Days Between? What??

I'm positive that when I saw ABB & PL&F last fall, WH was using the Marshall and a Diaz stacked right on top of it. Also, he's talked of checking out a similar PRS head like the one Trucks uses (this is all in the ABB context), but don't think it has seen the stage yet.

Anyway, as for the envelope, he never used it - that I can recall :D - at the DC show... but I can see where it would be out of place on something like Althea. That said, I totally agree that he's fairly new to the effect. He did use it very tastefully at the Inauguration gig on Dancin'.

And I couldn't agree more about having WH sing ALL JG tunes. Much more offensive to my ears is Bobby or Phil lacking any of the gravitas that Jerry's voice had, especially BW - it's what I've missed most since Jer passed. Weir's taken the "hah" and "nah" phrasing from some of his vocal "improvisations" and adapted the stuttered, staccato phrasings and applied them to both his own tunes and Jerry tunes. It absolutely sucks and should be reserved for when they are relegated to playing Vegas shows for our blue-haired non-bra-tossing widows. Love Bob, but his vocal crap bothers me much more than Warren's use of the AW. Just my $.02.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby Wharfster » Tue May 19, 2009 11:19 pm

Love Warren, but I agree that the envelope filter use is a little bit brittle, forced or unmusical.. and yeah, I think he tends to be excessive. It's a little hard to judge, though, given the fact that it just sounds SO good sometimes. That being said, I think that Bob's envelope filter sound is a little goofy. Bob has been playing great, especially durin space, a part of the show that I think Warren has been play really nicely on. When will Warren learn to use some of those wild flute and horn sounds that Jerry was so in command of? Phil is just amazing, no question, and I think Jeff is great. At times, his keys are just OUT of this world. Other times, I think he relies too much on a mundane organ sound or forgets to play in the background, as someone like Keither Godchaux did so well. At times, Jeff elicits both Brent and Keith's spirit, but somehow maintains a recognizable and individual style and sound. I wish he'd use that contentious 'tinkle-bell' Brent toy piano sound. By the way, where ARE all the Brent tunes?
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby warrenMFKNhaynes » Wed May 20, 2009 1:21 pm

Wharfster wrote: By the way, where ARE all the Brent tunes?



I KNOW! they did hey pocky way in 04, but nothing in 09. He would sound great on I Will Take You Home (even though I know that might be a little too personal). and how 'bout Never Trust a Woman? C'mon!
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby wisedyes » Thu May 21, 2009 11:35 am

I don't know, fellas - I think when you have that kind of song selection at your fingertips, Brent's tunes would be pretty far down the list. Not as far as Vinny's, but pretty far down there. I can't think of any Brent tune I'd rather hear than any Garcia / Weir / Lesh song, or even just about any of their standard covers that they did.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby wisedyes » Thu May 21, 2009 11:37 am

Oh, and yeah, I agree that Warren probably overdid the mutron a tad, but overall, that's pretty small potatoes. I would like to see him pick up a few more of the Jerry "written" lead lines, like during the bridge break of "Playin' In the Band", for instance....
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby Guardian » Thu May 21, 2009 6:22 pm

I agree. He uses it too much on the wrong songs and then the songs that need it, Shakedown, Fire on the Mountain, Estimated, Feel Like a Stranger, etc, he doesn't have it set to "pronounce the notes'... just my opinion.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby Pete B. » Sat May 23, 2009 7:01 pm

For me its the un-ending barrage of senselessly placed "Jerry-peels"... but yeah, Music Never from the Gorge pretty much captures the Mu-problem.
Eyes is a Jerry-peel-a-thon for sure.
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby tigerstrat » Sun May 24, 2009 10:20 am

Pete B. wrote:For me its the un-ending barrage of senselessly placed "Jerry-peels"... but yeah, Music Never from the Gorge pretty much captures the Mu-problem.
Eyes is a Jerry-peel-a-thon for sure.


Pete, what's a Jerry-peel?
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Re: Warren and the envelope filter

Postby Pete B. » Sun May 24, 2009 11:23 am

Jerry-peel = Typically like a 3 or 4 note descending pull-off.
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