What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

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What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:05 am

I'm looking at changing things up a lot (for me), and to go to a SS power amp and 2x12 (or 1x12?) E120 cab. My initial thoughts were to go to the HD500. I've heard a few Fender and Vox clips and it sounds good enough to try out. I think the only modeller info I've seen here is from Vic, but I can't do an AxeFX, so:

I'm looking for the best Twin and AC30 tone from one unit. I know I could go w/ one of the twin preamps and maybe get one of the Tech21 Liverpools (which would be an OK plan), but I'd really like to get some other amps to play with and sell/trade my pedals too.

I would love it if the HD500 does the job and I could have a good Jerry tone/pedals in one bank and a good Bobby tone/pedals in another.

What units should I consider? Anyone else doing this? Am I :D ?

Once I'm sure of what I want to do, I'm going to sell/trade:
DRRI
Vox AC30CC
Sunn Beta Lead 4x10
modded Crate V15
ODs,Qtron,Delay,Tuner,Phaser

Thanks, Ed.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby hogan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:19 am

you sell all that stuff you have listed and you'll be in the axefx territory.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:29 am

hogan wrote:you sell all that stuff you have listed and you'll be in the axefx territory.


But I'll still need an amp/cab, or FRFR (which I don't think I want, at least at first go). I really can't go into pocket on this right now.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby playingdead » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:53 am

You've picked the two of the most difficult amp tones to capture ... Vox chime and Fender sparkle.

Most modelers can do the high-gain stuff pretty effortlessly. What I've heard of the Fender cleans on the HD500 haven't impressed me. I think the Eleven does a pretty good Vox, dunno about the Fender, though. The AxeFX really didn't get the Fender thing just exactly perfect until the 10.0 software revision, which made a huge difference in the sparkle factor.

I know you would be happy with an AxeFX Standard ($1500 new -- used ones are almost impossible to find, which is a pretty good sign, actually). But whatever modeler you do choose, I'd strongly suggest running it FRFR because you are going to be missing one of the most versatile aspects of it, which is the ability to change cabinets as well as amps. One of the greatest strengths of the AxeFX is the ability to load custom IR files of speaker cabinets, whether it's the ones I had made from my own JBL K110s and E120s, or the commercial offerings from RedWirez ... their collection offers great quality IR files from Vox cabinets, various JBLs, Jensens, Celestions, 4X10s, etc., all with a wide variety of microphones, and at very reasonable prices.

http://www.redwirez.com

Not sure what other modelers can do the IR thing, though.

Let us know what you come up with!
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby strumminsix » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:04 pm

You really need to go the FRFR route, IMO. You can pickup a Yamaha MSR400 for about 450. This sounded EXACTLY the same as the house system at this club which used top of the line Yamaha speakers and QSC poweramps with a flat SBD EQ.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:33 pm

Vic, you speak from experience and I know you've had great results...I saw you play a bit after that Furthur show in Lowell.

The only aspect of the FRFR route that gives me pause is the "miked amp" description of the sound. Maybe I'm making too big a deal of it....probaby should go test one at GC/Sam Ash. Did you have any reservations when you went FRFR? Do you see that as a concession for all you get from the Axe?

If I do the math,(Correct me on the numbers if you think I'm off):
DRRI $600
Vox AC30CC2 $700
Sunn Beta Lead 4x10 $300
modded Crate V15 w/V30 $250
Crowther Double Hotcake, $300
Fulltone GT500 $125
Qtron $100
AD9 $100
TU2, $75
EH Small Stone $50

Thats about $2600. I guess I could get the standard Axe and a used QSC K10/12. I've got to research the Axe more but you really need the foot controller ($750) for it to gig right?

Maybe I could pull it off.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:35 pm

strumminsix wrote:You really need to go the FRFR route, IMO. You can pickup a Yamaha MSR400 for about 450. This sounded EXACTLY the same as the house system at this club which used top of the line Yamaha speakers and QSC poweramps with a flat SBD EQ.


Strummin, Are you doing this (Axe/FRFR) too? I'm definately deferring to the experience here on this stuff.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby JonnyBoy » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:15 pm

Go try a Fender G-dec 30 and see if you get into the territory, I think I do on both amp styles on a "passable" level, in my opinion. $399 and it includes all the pedals you are selling above. You will have to download the Fuse software and modify the blackface and Vox patches in the "advanced" section. It sounds good coming from the 30 watt special design speaker and horn on the amp. The same models though have to be completely re-tweaked to have them go through the board DI to sound the same as the amp itself. Although you can use a good mic to go direct for that matter. I have to agree with Vic, the modeling seems to be focused on heavy metal and gain tones, while the accepted idea of "clean" is just a basic palate to add a bunch of crunch and effect to. I really think Fender went the extra step this time with this modeling amp on the clean side.

It is best to have someone that knows the amp sit down with you and adjust the tone as you see fit, or you won't really get the tone you are looking for during a test drive, bring you guitar if possible too. A Jerry styled twin tone was a tweaking fete for me, but it can be done. Some of the believers have patches already set up on fuse for different guitars and pickups specific to the Jerry sound, ie carvin middle single, super II split, etc... Although an Axe sits on top of the modeling world as the best, as the price dictates.

The bars and clubs I play at I don't need 4 QSC k12's baring my guitar for stage fill, a lot of times the amp itself and a tad of mic'd guitar into the mains is enough for me. Otherwise the twin and mac get the calling for louder things. I have to admit, I have not be able to get the Gdec to sound good loud as hell in a FRFR system.
Last edited by JonnyBoy on Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby strumminsix » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:17 pm

Grateful.Ed wrote:
strumminsix wrote:You really need to go the FRFR route, IMO. You can pickup a Yamaha MSR400 for about 450. This sounded EXACTLY the same as the house system at this club which used top of the line Yamaha speakers and QSC poweramps with a flat SBD EQ.


Strummin, Are you doing this (Axe/FRFR) too? I'm definately deferring to the experience here on this stuff.

No. I like my amps and feeling the speakers pump behind me. I'd only consider it if I were in a situation with:
1. always used our soundsystem w/soundguy
2. had a soundguy who did sound for all our gigs

Around here we rarely play with the same soundsystem or soundguy unless it's mine and me :lol:
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby playingdead » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:36 pm

I did have reservations, it was a leap of faith to bring it out to the first gig. And it took some time to get it dialed in properly. If you have a "Jerryfied" guitar with the Super IIs, effects loop and buffer, I can help get you set up.

I think that the "miked" description is a bit of a misnomer. People talk about the "in the room" feel of a "real" amplifier, but in reality, you have a guitar speaker that's pushing air in a room and the resultant reflections and room characteristics that you're hearing.

Running the AxeFX into a single QSC K10 in a room gives you the exact same sonic characteristics, and the sound is bouncing all over the place just like with a real amp. I did some pretty extensive comparisons between my old Hard Truckers cabinet and E-120s to the QSC K12 using the impulse response file from that same cabinet. I set them up side by side in an open room and A-B'd them by using the Fractal's output on one channel with no cabinet block into my former Focus 2R amp and the HT cabinet, and the other side with the cabinet block into the K12, switching back and forth, nice and loud. Sounded just like my guitar to me on both sides.

This is a pretty rare comparison to be able to make, since I did do a custom IR of my own cabinet. If you put a Twin Reverb on the floor, and an K12 and then try to compare the real amp with the AxeFX's Twin setting and whatever factory 2X12 IR you can find, it's not apples to apples any more. But running the same AxeFX amp setting into the real cabinet and a custom IR of that very cabinet side by side was very telling to me. The technology works, of course. It's merely applying the measured speaker response from a speaker cabinet to a fullrange speaker.

But I will also say that I have a Fender Vibrolux reissue sitting right here with a pair of JBL K110s in it, and it was easy for me to take the AxeFX and match the sound through the K12 or K10 using my IR of the K110s. And I prefer to use the AxeFX to dial up a Bassman or Deluxe Reverb setting through the K10 at home, because I like being able to step from the K110 to a Jensen or K120 or Celestions, and so forth.

It's not for everybody, but if you like to tweak stuff, and you would like to be able to easily step from a Boogie to a hotrod Marshall to the Vox or Fender to an Engl to a Soldano to a Dr. Z to a Trainwreck ... and from an open back 2X12 with Jensens to a 4X10 with V30s to an EV to a 1X8 oval speaker like Jimmy Page used on the early Zeppelin stuff ... at the click of a mouse ... you'll pretty much be in heaven. All the crazy effects and stuff that this thing can do is just icing on the cake at that point.

I love the fact that Fractal will give you a free 15 day trial, so you risk only the shipping if it's not for you. And Guitar Center will give you a return option on a QSC. My advice to anyone starting out with this is ignore all the crazy factory presets, set yourself up a patch from scratch with a Bassman amp block and a cabinet block of your choice and let it rip. Then step through each factory cabinet block to hear the sound variations available to you. Then go and step through all 70 amp blocks to hear the basics, because every single one can be adjusted ad infinitum for gain, tone, master, and all those little variations from sag to Class A to AB response to resonance frequencies and all that other stuff that gives the non-soldering types like me a headache.

Ultimately, I settled in with a bunch of different amp types that I like with cabinets that complement them to my ears ... the Garcia setup I use live, a nice Bassman, Deluxe, Trainwreck, Vox, Plexi, early Van Halen Marshall (Dave Friedman's "Marsha") just for fun, Boogie and a couple of other boutique ones. Keeps me busy when I feel like playing, and it's a lot more convenient than that room full of amps!


You don't have to run Fractal's foot controller (although it's nice having the tuner on the floor, I'm sure). A used Ground Control Pro works fine, as do various other MIDI boards. Probably $300 or so for a GCP.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:39 pm

strumminsix wrote:No. I like my amps and feeling the speakers pump behind me. I'd only consider it if I were in a situation with:
1. always used our soundsystem w/soundguy
2. had a soundguy who did sound for all our gigs

Around here we rarely play with the same soundsystem or soundguy unless it's mine and me :lol:


That's why I'm wondering about this. When I saw Vic play, I'm pretty sure he had his monitor behind him like a cab. I'm assuming he was in the FOH too.

There's no doubt I need to go to GC/Sam Ash and play an amp and the same amp's sim into an FRFR to see for myself.

Then I can decide if I can swing the AXE or not.

I'd also appreciate if any of you think any of the numbers on my gear listed seem off (High or Low). I think I'm close.

The Sunn Beta Lead will be interesting. I pulled it out of my basement a while back, cleaned it up and took it to an open mic to see how it sounded. The younger guys were all over it (Someone is using one today...Tool?). Anyways, they say they can fetch $500+ cuz their "in" right now. So I put an add in CL for $500, a few kids looked at it, no one tried to lowball me, one gave me a $50 deposit, and I never heard from him again. So I'm guessing it would be a deal/quick sale for someone at $300 or maybe a little more.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:41 pm

Vic, thanks for taking the time to help me.....just saw your post. I've gotta get my ass to a music store. :cool:
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby playingdead » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:03 pm

That's correct ... I have a K12 with my vocal monitor so I can hear myself (much, much better than I ever could with the cabinet blaring behind me), and a second one where the cabinet used to go that I use for the folks up front.

We don't have our own PA, but we do have the same sound man every night. I just am totally confident now that the direct line I'm giving him for whatever PA we're using is going to be identical to him sticking a mic in front of my old E-120s, and I don't worry about it anymore. I've walked out front of the stage during soundchecks with a wireless and I can hear that my stage sound sounds right off the K12 facing out, and the rest of the PA is just filling it in relative to everyone else's volume. The audience recordings I've heard bear that out. In fact, there was an awful audience recording we made from a cruise ship gig we did in inclement weather, where we got stuck inside the boat instead of outside, low ceiling, short room, absolutely packed with people, recorder was in the back of a huge crowd, horrible recording, ridiculous crowd noise and my guitar was the only clear thing you could hear back there. If I had been trying to push those JBLs hard in that setting, people up front would be bleeding from the ears and it would have been muffled in the back. I have an excerpt from it somewhere.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby strumminsix » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:28 pm

Ed, in my experience a monitor behind me sounded fucked up to my years.


Vic, I'd do the same in your situation. Big stages + dedicated soundguy makes life good.
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Re: What'll get the best Twin and Vox tone from one modeller

Postby Grateful.Ed » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:36 pm

JonnyBoy wrote:Go try a Fender G-dec 30

The bars and clubs I play at I don't need 4 QSC k12's baring my guitar for stage fill, a lot of times the amp itself and a tad of mic'd guitar into the mains is enough for me. Otherwise the twin and mac get the calling for louder things. I have to admit, I have not be able to get the Gdec to sound good loud as hell in a FRFR system.


I've read lots of good stuff on the GDEC...does it have a line out or the earphone jack like the mustang?

I got to mess with a Vox Tone Lab for a little while and thought it did bothe Vox's AND Fender's pretty good.
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