Vintage Fenders with no mid control

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Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby caspersvapors » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:06 pm

i.e. the pro, deluxe and princeton.

simple question really- if we were to imagine these did have a mid control - what would it be set at?
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby strumminsix » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:13 pm

caspersvapors wrote:i.e. the pro, deluxe and princeton.

simple question really- if we were to imagine these did have a mid control - what would it be set at?


Most folks say it's around 7 +/- 1.5.

It always seems closer to 3-4 to my ears.
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby caspersvapors » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:22 pm

hmm since most people equate vintage fenders with having a scooped tone, 7 seems like it would be a bit high.
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby Grateful.Ed » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:17 pm

I have a DRRI and it was explained to me that using the Treble, Bass....and Volume can work like having a mid control.

Want higher mids?....lower Treble and Bass and increase Volume.

Lower mids?...higher Treble and Bass and lower Volume.

You have to fiddle with the knobs more but it works.
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby RiverRat » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:47 pm

.
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby aiq » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:49 am

Pete Cage told me it's about 7, and flat is 0 - 1 on Bass and Treble. The tone stack generator seems to agree.

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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:37 pm

caspersvapors wrote:i.e. the pro, deluxe and princeton.

simple question really- if we were to imagine these did have a mid control - what would it be set at?



The vintage Tweed tone sections have NO mid dip, totally NON-scooped. The tone control can control tailor the treble boost/cut a bit. I'd have to really scope it out, but off hand, I'd say that to get close to a Tweed style EQ on a Twin, you'd put the mid at 10, probably the treble between 7 and 10, and the bass down around 2 or so. The Black/Silver faced EQ tone stacks are the scooped Fender sound. Tweed is the full mid, no-scoop sound.

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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby aiq » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:11 pm

my interest in all this is that my CVR has no mid control and I generally like the flat setting on the amp.

Brad, you are the man and I look forward to your further posts. I have your black box. any tips as to the impedence setting vis a vis the uncolored tone? I keep it in middle setting as a buffer at the top of my pedal chain.
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:15 pm

Oops,

I realize you were talking about amps like Deluxe Reverbs, Bandmasters, and Princeton Reverbs with bass and treble, but no mid.
The amps without mid knobs have a fixed resistor of 6.8k. On an amp WITH a mid knob, which is typically audio-taper, that would have you setting the mid knob at about 8 to achieve 6.8k of resistance. So roughly 8 on the mid knob dial is equivalent to the amps without mid knobs. We hear that Jerry preferred to set his mid knob at around 5.5 to 7 for his mid setting. So that means to get a no-mid amp to behave like a Jerry amp you'd want to replace that 6.8k resistor and maybe try something closer to 3k. Then do the Jerry thing and turn the treble all the way up and the bass all the way down.

What's REAL important to understand about the Fender tone circuit is that treble is not just treble, even more than the amount of treble, it controls the frequency of the center of the midrange dip. It totally controls the "voicing" of the amp. Changing the treble setting on a Fender amp completely changes the midrange character and voicing, and it's not subtle. This is why the circuit is called "interactive". The bass and mid knobs do NOT have this interactive aspect to them. It's all about the treble knob. For example, pedal steel players find that a Fender twin with the treble set on 3.5 is often ideal. The key there is that it centers the midrange dip at around 800Hz. For the Jerry setting with the treble set on 10, the midrange sweeps WAY down to around 250Hz. That's a radically different voicing. The point is that the treble knob on a Fender is more of a midrange frequency selector than a treble knob. Jerry found something about the mid voicing with treble on 10 to be ideal for him. Although Jerry, with the bass on 1, didn't really have a dip, but the midrange shape and frequency is still largely determined by that treble setting of 10.

A cool way to experiment with this is to crank the treble, but then turn the guitar tone down to mellow it out. Listen to that mid voicing. Then turn the treble on the amp way down, but turn the guitar tone up to compensate you so you wind up with roughly the same amount of treble. The difference in the midrange will be very noticeable.

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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:22 pm

aiq wrote:Brad, ... I have your black box. any tips as to the impedence setting vis a vis the uncolored tone? I keep it in middle setting as a buffer at the top of my pedal chain.



That variable impedance (vari-Z) setting is totally up to the guitar, the guitar's pots, and the rig. I don't think there's any rule at all to that. 2:00 to 5:00 is fairly typical of a guitar pedal or amp input. Noon is beginning to mellow things a bit. I'd say turn it to taste, no rule at all. Further to the left is making the pickup flatter and fuller sounding. To the right raises the pickup's inherent treble peak (in amplitude not frequency) to help dial in more cut and bite and twang. For most pickups that treble peak lives between 2kHz and 4kHz. If you want the Black Box input to behave just like plugging your guitar straight into a Fender amp, turn the knob all the way up. That's 1Meg which is identical to a Fender amp input.

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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby aiq » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:01 am

Thanks, I'll experiment.
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby caspersvapors » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:46 am

SarnoMusicSolutions wrote:Oops,

I realize you were talking about amps like Deluxe Reverbs, Bandmasters, and Princeton Reverbs with bass and treble, but no mid.
The amps without mid knobs have a fixed resistor of 6.8k. On an amp WITH a mid knob, which is typically audio-taper, that would have you setting the mid knob at about 8 to achieve 6.8k of resistance. So roughly 8 on the mid knob dial is equivalent to the amps without mid knobs. We hear that Jerry preferred to set his mid knob at around 5.5 to 7 for his mid setting. So that means to get a no-mid amp to behave like a Jerry amp you'd want to replace that 6.8k resistor and maybe try something closer to 3k. Then do the Jerry thing and turn the treble all the way up and the bass all the way down.

What's REAL important to understand about the Fender tone circuit is that treble is not just treble, even more than the amount of treble, it controls the frequency of the center of the midrange dip. It totally controls the "voicing" of the amp. Changing the treble setting on a Fender amp completely changes the midrange character and voicing, and it's not subtle. This is why the circuit is called "interactive". The bass and mid knobs do NOT have this interactive aspect to them. It's all about the treble knob. For example, pedal steel players find that a Fender twin with the treble set on 3.5 is often ideal. The key there is that it centers the midrange dip at around 800Hz. For the Jerry setting with the treble set on 10, the midrange sweeps WAY down to around 250Hz. That's a radically different voicing. The point is that the treble knob on a Fender is more of a midrange frequency selector than a treble knob. Jerry found something about the mid voicing with treble on 10 to be ideal for him. Although Jerry, with the bass on 1, didn't really have a dip, but the midrange shape and frequency is still largely determined by that treble setting of 10.

A cool way to experiment with this is to crank the treble, but then turn the guitar tone down to mellow it out. Listen to that mid voicing. Then turn the treble on the amp way down, but turn the guitar tone up to compensate you so you wind up with roughly the same amount of treble. The difference in the midrange will be very noticeable.

Brad


thanks for the tips!

I actually own a 65 Pro Reverb, thats why I was curious

for my band (which is not Dead related) I usually have set it like this:

Treble - 5, Bass 7, Bright switch on. I like the Bright Switch on because Im hardly ever cranking that amp past 4 during shows

I play an epiphone riviera through it
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby Stevo123 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:40 am

Speaking of fender tone stacks...

From some playing around with the tone stack calc, it looks like if you increase the value of the mid capacitor in the tone stack, it will increase the potential range in which you can lower the central frequency of the mid scoop down to, with the treble knob. Has anyone played around with different capacitors here? The stock one in my fender amp is .022 I think. Seems like a higher value cap would allow you to sweep that mid scoop down to as low as 250hz, well into the low-mid "mud" territory. The other thing is that you could possibly lower the mid scoop range with less cranking of the treble knob, so you can get rid of some of those lower mids without having a massively huge high-end treble response. Has anyone tried this out?
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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby SarnoMusicSolutions » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:10 pm

Instead of enlarging the mid cap, which I don't think is the right direction for guitar tones, try altering the value of that 100k slope resistor. You may find some very cool results.

.047, .033, and .022 were the most common mid cap values. .047 being by far the most common in Fenders, then .022 second. Only a few had the .033.

And if you're toying around with "Jerry" tones on the Duncan calculator, set the bass all the way off and treble all the way on to actually see what Jerry went for and what effect the value changes have on that sound.


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Re: Vintage Fenders with no mid control

Postby aiq » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:46 pm

>>>If you want the Black Box input to behave just like plugging your guitar straight into a Fender amp, turn the knob all the way up

That's the ticket, Brad. Used my own actual full rig last weekend at the Zoner jam in Baltimore, at a real volume and I ran the vari-z open. Great!
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