More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Chat about Equipment Info

More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:42 am

Thanks for the previous tips ... things are sounding better, I think. Brought up the kicks a bit, snapped up the snares, re-eq'd the rhythm guitar, increased the stereo spread a little bit, etc.

The next (final) dilemma ... one of the drummers did an audience recording from back by the board, which sounds a bit distant, has a fair amount of crowd (he didn't get the mics up very high) but does add a little room ambience/echo. (I also think it washes out the stereo mix a bit.) He really wants me to mix it in with the board for the video. I'm on the fence.

I suppose I could fade it in and out at the start and end of songs, if nothing else. Or put it in the rear speakers of a 5.1 mix if I can figure out how. The difference is most evident on headphones. Any opinions? Just a minute or two of Box of Rain for comparison (excuse the muff on the guitar solo opener):

No audience: http://52vincentdrive.com/boxnoaud.wav

With audience: http://52vincentdrive.com/boxaud.wav
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby jeffm725 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:19 am

I like a bit of crowd ambience on the video....
what is your final goal for the mix?
If it is DVD or Blue Ray, you can do multiple mixes and let the listener choose the mix.
You can have 2 channel SBD
2 Channel Matrix
and then also offer a surround mix

I really like matrixes in a 5.1 or 6.1 dolby digital environment.

I put an 80/20 SBD/Audience Matrix in the Front Left and Right
I put a 30/70 SBD/aud Matrix in the Rear Left and Right

I put a SBD in the Center Front

and then A 60/40 or 50/50 in the SUB (depending on how good the lows are on the AUD)

so when you are sitting in the middle of a good stereo you here the SBD and a touch of Aud coming from the frond and a good amount of Aud behind you. it sounds like you are there

I have done this with numerous dead shows from VHS that I used sbd and Auds on to replace the camera audio to good effect.
.......................................................have you heard the one about the yellow dog?
jeffm725
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:16 pm
Location: Chester, CT.

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:24 am

I know Logic Pro can do the 5.1, the question is whether the version of Final Cut Express HD I currently own can handle it ... I'm just judging on the stereo mix right now (which will wind up on Youtube as a stereo mix, as well, where most folks will probably see-hear it). Also, it's going to take a lot of trial and error to get the mix right, as I don't have a surround monitoring setup, aside from the home theater setup I have.
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby JonnyBoy » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:49 am

I was always a soundboard snob, but there is something special about a WELL DONE matrix. I would consider if the AUD recording is good enough to mix in there. it may be a situation where the final matrix is a noise you would wish to remove if it was a part of the original sound board to make things sound better. But I have to admit, there are some matrix recordings that are awesome. The only issue I have had with some is the recording sounds like it has a feedback issue.

What do you have to loose trying it out to see if it helps?
http://otislotus.net/ Finally finished our new site...
User avatar
JonnyBoy
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2134
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:35 am
Location: the south swamps

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:19 pm

Experimenting a little ... put a very slight delay on the audience recording, now it adds a little extra depth but still retains the stereo spread of the soundboard.

http://52vincentdrive.com/boxaud2.wav
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:04 pm

Should you just "earball" the delay time to get the audience mics and soundboard where you want them? If it's synced up perfectly it kind of washes out to my ears, or maybe it's just a phase issue.

The Felt Forum 12-5-71 FM recording is a pretty good example of too much audience mic delay with the board, you can hear the slap echo on the snare drum and the vocals very clearly.

This is the end of Ramble on Rose for the crowd noise ... more prominent audience, too. Hmmmm.

http://52vincentdrive.com/ramblenoaud.wav
http://52vincentdrive.com/rambleaud.wav

Who's done 5.1 on a Mac?
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby hogan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:50 pm

playingdead wrote:Should you just "earball" the delay time to get the audience mics and soundboard where you want them? If it's synced up perfectly it kind of washes out to my ears, or maybe it's just a phase issue.

The Felt Forum 12-5-71 FM recording is a pretty good example of too much audience mic delay with the board, you can hear the slap echo on the snare drum and the vocals very clearly.

This is the end of Ramble on Rose for the crowd noise ... more prominent audience, too. Hmmmm.

http://52vincentdrive.com/ramblenoaud.wav
http://52vincentdrive.com/rambleaud.wav

Who's done 5.1 on a Mac?


I think you're supposed to do like 9ms of delay on the sbd portion of a matrix, but i might be dreaming.
Honest to the point of recklessness.
PM me for a cab
http://www.facebook.com/workingmansdead
Happy customers (~);-} :
paulinnc, spaceyrface43, AKdead, chuckles, ebelgee, Quebee, Kennay, bomall01, NashvilleMike, Strumminsix,jx2638,Chutley, Adam Deckard, jkstraw, TennesseeJedi, deadhead1988, spacefunkologist, rmackenzie
hogan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:01 pm

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby tcsned » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:30 am

playingdead wrote:
Who's done 5.1 on a Mac?


I have but its been a few years, I believe I used DVD Studio Pro and not Logic for that from what I remember. It was a classical concert using a surround sound mic array so it recorded 5 channels at once (a really cool mic). I'll look at the program to see if it jogs my memory. I think I exported the individual tracks out of Logic and then used them in DVD Studio Pro.

I thought the tracks with the audience mixed in sounded better to my ears. I like the clarity of board tapes but they can be a little sterile, less organic sounding.
User avatar
tcsned
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2745
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:50 pm
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:50 am

Unfortunately, Apple doesn't sell DVD Studio Pro separately, it's bundled with Final Cut Studio ... that's a thousand bucks. Ouch.
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby tcsned » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:10 am

playingdead wrote:Unfortunately, Apple doesn't sell DVD Studio Pro separately, it's bundled with Final Cut Studio ... that's a thousand bucks. Ouch.

Yeah, it's an awesome program but kinda pricey. Which version of Logic are you running?
User avatar
tcsned
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2745
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:50 pm
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:25 am

I have 8.0 ...

Looking at Toast Titanium, which I think handles AC-3; you can "add" audio to your video within there, but not sure how much of a nightmare the sync up would be.
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby RiverRat » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:04 am

.
Last edited by RiverRat on Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RiverRat
Senior Member
 
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:38 am

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby jeffm725 » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:29 am

I dont think you pulled that out of the air hogan, 9ms was always the average delay we (meaning the people who did a lot of audio syncing of old Dead VHS videos) would use as a starting point for syncing audio to video, going on the premise that the audience mics were like Ray said around 100 feet from the stage.
.......................................................have you heard the one about the yellow dog?
jeffm725
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1072
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:16 pm
Location: Chester, CT.

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby hogan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 am

Yep, that's what I was getting at.
Vic, you should just start w/ a simple stereo matrix. 70/30 ratio. Get it to where that sounds good and then start tinkering/investing in 5.1/7.1 etc mixes. You could also start putting a pair of akg c-1000s on the corners of the stage. I know Healy was doing that in the late 80's and 1990. They may not have been akgs but he was surely doing ambient micing of the crowd. This would add some atmosphere to your board recordings and might eliminate a step later.
Here's an example of a simple, great sounding matrix:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd90-06- ... sbeok.shnf
But truth be told the soundboard portion of this is already a matrix
Honest to the point of recklessness.
PM me for a cab
http://www.facebook.com/workingmansdead
Happy customers (~);-} :
paulinnc, spaceyrface43, AKdead, chuckles, ebelgee, Quebee, Kennay, bomall01, NashvilleMike, Strumminsix,jx2638,Chutley, Adam Deckard, jkstraw, TennesseeJedi, deadhead1988, spacefunkologist, rmackenzie
hogan
Senior Member
 
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:01 pm

Re: More mixing ... to matrix or not to matrix?

Postby playingdead » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:19 am

Great tips ... I'm finding that getting the audience portion just a tiny bit behind the board, and maybe in there about 30-40% of the volume is adding some spaciousness. And the singalongs aren't too annoying at that level, either ...

Great idea to put mics on the corners of the stage, too.

I love the matrix simulcasts from the Greek in July 1988, they sound sooooo good.

As long as the dude who used to show up at all the Capitol Theater in Passaic NJ simulcasts doesn't appear ... he would go "UH aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye aye" constantly into the audience mics they would turn up between songs ... 4-27-77, 11-24-78 ... I think he was at the JGB 3-1-80 show as well. I used to record those shows on a reel to reel off WNEW in NYC. There were always interminable breaks between the songs, so he got more than his 15 minutes of fame there.

:shock:

My favorite alltime audience remark was at a Kingfish show from the Masonic Temple in 75 ... they are counting off to start Big Iron and some guy way off to the left of the audience mics suddenly yells out, "Intensified pothole!" and then someone off to the right yells, "Cerebral attack!" ... and you can hear the taper himself (or someone next to him) say "Cannabis rolling paper!" in a cheesy voice just as the song starts.
User avatar
playingdead
Senior Member
 
Posts: 1731
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:55 am
Location: Boston, MA

Next

Return to Grateful Dead Equipment Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

cron