Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Jon S. » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:56 am

bodiddley wrote:Yes, well said Waldo. When I stood before these guitars in th R&R Hall of Fame I felt the same thing I feel when I go to the smithsonian and stand before some artifacts that George Washington once owned.

I agree with waldo and bodiddley. I also understand Chuckle's viewpoint but, as noted earlier, I'm biased (disdain the Irsays for how they treated Baltimore).

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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Chuckles » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:56 pm

Oh no, I'm not disparaging anyone's opinion at all. I feel the same way towards Tiger and the other Irwin guitars; love 'em! I wouldn't spend the time I do oggling the many photos Waldo and Dozin' have up of them if I didn't. Instead of saying "obsession", perhaps I should have said "sense of entitlement". :shock:

Whatever Jerry's intentions for it (and if someone has insight into his private thoughts on the matter, I'd love to know them), it was willed to Irwin to do with it as he wanted. Whether he wanted to auction it off or not, it is what he did and it is now in the possession of a serious collector. Like many of the pieces one sees in museums, hopefully Irsay will see his way clear to loan it for exhibit at some point.
Seems like I've been here before...

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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Mick » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:02 am

Rusty the Scoob wrote:He may have some hippie in him but clearly not enough. He should at least let Waldo study it for a day. What would that cost him? Nothing. :-x


While I understand this feeling, I have had a minimal amount of experience dealing with "high profile" people, and can see a bit of the other side. When you have a lot of money, are a CEO or NFL owner or other high-profile person, the world beats a path do your door, all of them looking for SOMETHING, and I am sure the strangeness and variety of the requests is as large as the vagaries of the human race can generate. So, Waldo wants to go inspect the guitar, and we all think it would be great if he got the opportunity because he is an expert on guitar electronics and is purely interested in The GD, music and history and all good things and we're pretty sure he isn't a knife-wielding whacko. But, the reality is that from the other side of the door, Waldo is one tiny voice in a vast sea of people who want SOMETHING from Mr. Irsay. Worse, Mr. Irsay doesn't know about Waldo's background, or the fact that we're pretty sure he isn't a knife wielding whacko, and he just doesn't have the time to even try to learn the backgrounds and probable mental stability of even a tenth of the people that want something from him. As much as it sucks, and I'll bet Mr. Irsay would agree that it does, the reality is he needs to hire people to say "no" to the vast array of folks who come around looking for something, pretty much no matter what that something is.

That said, if I win the mega millions tonight, I'll offer Mr. Irsay $2 million for Tiger. If he accets, I'll let Waldo look it over for a day.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby keirweir » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:19 am

playingdead wrote:Could be worse; Jerry Jones could have bought it.



LOL :lol:
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby waldo041 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:04 am

Mick wrote:
Rusty the Scoob wrote:He may have some hippie in him but clearly not enough. He should at least let Waldo study it for a day. What would that cost him? Nothing. :-x


While I understand this feeling, I have had a minimal amount of experience dealing with "high profile" people, and can see a bit of the other side. When you have a lot of money, are a CEO or NFL owner or other high-profile person, the world beats a path do your door, all of them looking for SOMETHING, and I am sure the strangeness and variety of the requests is as large as the vagaries of the human race can generate. So, Waldo wants to go inspect the guitar, and we all think it would be great if he got the opportunity because he is an expert on guitar electronics and is purely interested in The GD, music and history and all good things and we're pretty sure he isn't a knife-wielding whacko. But, the reality is that from the other side of the door, Waldo is one tiny voice in a vast sea of people who want SOMETHING from Mr. Irsay. Worse, Mr. Irsay doesn't know about Waldo's background, or the fact that we're pretty sure he isn't a knife wielding whacko, and he just doesn't have the time to even try to learn the backgrounds and probable mental stability of even a tenth of the people that want something from him. As much as it sucks, and I'll bet Mr. Irsay would agree that it does, the reality is he needs to hire people to say "no" to the vast array of folks who come around looking for something, pretty much no matter what that something is.

That said, if I win the mega millions tonight, I'll offer Mr. Irsay $2 million for Tiger. If he accets, I'll let Waldo look it over for a day.



point taken, and i totally understand that aspect of this discussion. but know, that while i would love to be able to get my hands on that instrument for documenting, i feel more strongly in the fact that he continues to keep it in a private collection. while mr. irsay did buy it with his money and does own and possess it, it will NEVER be his guitar. that guitar will ALWAYS be jerry garcia's guitar played with the grateful dead. that is a fact that will never be disputed. that said, what does it say about mr.irsay's respect for the grateful dead and it's legions of fans keeping it all to himself, regardless of my requests to document it? as i stated previously, if you have the money to buy the world, is it it really yours to do what you will with it?

and as for the comment chuckles makes about what jerry would have wanted. it is well documented what they planned on doing with their gear. here's a quote if you haven't seen it.

The Dead have long planned to build a museum in San Francisco called Terrapin Station where Garcia's guitars would be a centerpiece exhibit.

"I just hope they don't wind up in some private collector's hands" Hart said.


now that plan is shot because it's MAIN piece is in a private collection, mickey's fear realized. the core 4 didn't hide it after jerry died, it was displayed for all to see, and mr. irsay continues to disrespect jerry, the GD and it's legion of fans by not attempting to do the same, but rather play it in private at his own jam sessions. that has nothing to do with "entitlement" and all to do with respect. same could be said for wolf, but with wolf the owner has allowed it to make it's rounds and be played onstage for the fans, and would think that it will again. can or will that be done for tiger, as of yet almost 8 years in his possession, it has not nor does it seem likely it will.

i would state, that is just my opinion, but know that it is not solely my opinion. i do what i do out of respect, not entitlement! irsay should display it out of respect and not horde it because of entitlement from his purchase!

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waldo
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby playingdead » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:13 am

Interesting that you mention that, just last night I was paging through Phil Lesh's book, Searching for the Sound, and he was talking about how that first idea to have the museum-merchandise Terrapin Station location somehow got blown up into a huge performing arts venue in downtown San Francisco that they couldn't possibly afford to build, and thus died on the vine.

He also expressed his disgust with GDP for going after the instruments in court instead of allowing Jerry's will to make the decision. And noted that he was the "odd man out" when everyone else wanted to use the vault as collateral for a huge venture capital loan to try to make the business and the performing arts venue a reality.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Rusty the Scoob » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:26 am

I think they were smart to retain legal control of their vault, and also to not get in over their heads in some crazy business venture. The Family Dog proved that they were musicians first, not venue owners.

Phil is also notoriously unsentimental about gear. When his stolen EB3 was found in a pawn shop by a fan and offered back to him, he had no interest. I understand where he's coming from but I personally don't think that way.

I also think Jim Irsay isn't much of a Deadhead for hoarding Tiger. I understand the pressures involved in having that kind of wealth - but a true Head would miracle a ticket to another. All he has to do is tell his curator to let Waldo see it.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby waldo041 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:29 am

playingdead wrote:Interesting that you mention that, just last night I was paging through Phil Lesh's book, Searching for the Sound, and he was talking about how that first idea to have the museum-merchandise Terrapin Station location somehow got blown up into a huge performing arts venue in downtown San Francisco that they couldn't possibly afford to build, and thus died on the vine.

He also expressed his disgust with GDP for going after the instruments in court instead of allowing Jerry's will to make the decision. And noted that he was the "odd man out" when everyone else wanted to use the vault as collateral for a huge venture capital loan to try to make the business and the performing arts venue a reality.


i have also read a healy interview from relix long ago, where they talked about having a place like that where the dead would do runs and the audience would come to them versus the constant touring and toll it took. also, while i totally agree with phil, and jerry's wishes were eventually followed thru, BUT it was only because jerry paid cash for wolf and tiger and GDP didn't have a record of payement. if GDP as an organization had paid for the instruments and had it recorded as the other irwin instruments were, irwin would have never had got them. they would have been owned by GDP and not jerry;s to will away in his death. now granted, jerry's wish may have never been realized had he not paid cah for those 2, but the GDP had every right to claim the ones they do possess. jerry was a nice guy and great musician, but he was no business man and his will shows that. the sole reason irwin got wolf and tiger and not any of the others is solely based on the form of payment.

peace,
waldo
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Mick » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:39 am

waldo041 wrote:point taken, and i totally understand that aspect of this discussion. but know, that while i would love to be able to get my hands on that instrument for documenting, i feel more strongly in the fact that he continues to keep it in a private collection. while mr. irsay did buy it with his money and does own and possess it, it will NEVER be his guitar. that guitar will ALWAYS be jerry garcia's guitar played with the grateful dead. that is a fact that will never be disputed. that said, what does it say about mr.irsay's respect for the grateful dead and it's legions of fans keeping it all to himself, regardless of my requests to document it? as i stated previously, if you have the money to buy the world, is it it really yours to do what you will with it?


I believe this post to be honest, sincere, and rational. I also disagree with it. I mean, I understand the feelings behind it, and that from your perspective, the things you have called out are "facts", but I don't accept them as "facts" in the broader sense of the word. Whether we like it or not, Tiger is in the hands of a private collector who does in fact "own" it and it is "his" by any reasonable application of the word. Mickey Hart's fear that it end up there is not only not germain, but it is the surviving members of the GD who aggressively chased after those guitars in pursuit of the almighty dollar who ensured that it would end up exactly where it is, in the hands of the highest bidder. You turn something into a money thing, and that is always where it ends. It was the GD-sans-Jerry that turned Jerry's guitars into a money thing, not Irsay, so they got what they sought, and I don't really care to hear any whining from them.

As far as what Jerry wanted: Clearly Jerry wanted the guitars to go back to Irwin, since I have seen an online copy of his will and it is stated plain as day. I speculate that he wanted them to go back to Doug as a sort-of "thank you" for making such great instruments, for which he was not very well compensated on a monetary basis at the time of their manufacture. Jerry had to have known that one of the things that Doug might do with the guitars was to sell one or more of them, so I am not certain that Irsay owning one is necessarily something that Jerry would actively be against should he be here to opine. But again, the GD making this a money thing was what made absolutely certain that Doug would have to sell. The GD banging the table that these guitars were worth millions of dollars, perking up the ears of the IRS that a big tax was about to be due even if the GD lost all the court battles and Irwin got ALL the guitars made absolutely certain that donating the guitars to a museum or other historical purpose was not a possibility for Doug as he didn't have the ability to pay that tax.

If you turn your art into a money thing, sooner or later, you'll realize that you are just another whore. And you will have no one to blame but yourself.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Crazy 9.5 Fingers » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:15 am

Looking at this discussion from a different perspective.

Jerry was an artist. His music was his legacy, not any of his guitars, music stands, microphones, picks, straps, etc. Those were tools. Those were his paint brushes, his ceramic wheels, his easel, etc.

The volumes of music we all have, in pristine quality for the most part, those are the priceless objets d'art. Not Tiger, not Wolf, those are tools.

The sad part about this whole thing is that everyone's emotions have been tied to the instruments. Should Jerry's guitars be in a museum? It isn't my place to feel one way or another to be honest. Is there something great about a guitar sitting behind a glass wall, untouched for eternity? I think not IMO. Not to mention, I can learn everything I want about that guitar on Dozin's site. As for Irsay... Is there anything wrong with he who hath the most bucks getting the instrument? I suppose so, but since there are collectors out there who pay top dollar for all memorabilia whether it is sports or music or what have you, then I guess the answer is no.

Emotions run high with this guitar because we all love Jerry and his music so much. In the end, I think Jerry would be the first guy to say "Hey, you can't take it with you". Would I like to own the guitar, absolutely. But the fact remains, I have volumes upon volumes of Jerry's music that give me far more joy than any piece of wood and electronics ever could. So in the end, it's just a guitar, a tool, a paint brush. We all have the masterpiece it painted.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Tennessee Jedi » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:32 am

Crazy 9.5 Fingers wrote: So in the end, it's just a guitar, a tool, a paint brush. We all have the masterpiece it painted.

I would kill to noodle on Wolf
I guess some would contend the Tiger is the definitive Jerry guitar but for me its the Wolf
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby jkstraw » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:37 am

Crazy - cool perspective :cool:

Mind you I am still dying to get my hands on my Tiger replica! :lol:

I agree whole wholeheartedly with you - but would still love to see someone like Waldo...with the interest, skill and willingness to share...get the chance to really go over it inside and out and document all the details. Hopefully it is just a matter of time.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Crazy 9.5 Fingers » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:48 am

Don't get me wrong TJ, if I had the Wolf I would play it naked just because I could. Hey now. Jerry rolling over in the Ganges right now.
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby Tennessee Jedi » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:52 am

Crazy 9.5 Fingers wrote:Don't get me wrong TJ, if I had the Wolf I would play it naked just because I could. Hey now. Jerry rolling over in the Ganges right now.

I think the Ganges was Jerry's fav snorkeling site ....
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Re: Jerry's Tiger in Sports Illustrated

Postby gr8fullfred » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:32 am

Let me throw in my $.02

I have been reading alot recently about Jerry's guitars. First of all Jerry was a great musician and did alot more than just play music. He was constantly pushing the envelope in the pursuit of something better, the next step, to evolve the music to the next level. Apparently, to a certain extent the rest of the GD were also into driving the evolution of music technology also, Phil had many custom basses, Bobby has numerous guitars, and the drummers had many tricks and gizzmos . Dan Healy and others drove innovation in large scale PA systems.

Jerry's guitars, and particularly Tiger, became Icons of generations of fans. That is why Tiger could fetch $850,000. Tiger is more than the wood and metal and inlays and buffer and OBEL that Doug created. Tiger is a cultural treasure mostly because Jerry played tiger more than any other guitar. It is because of Jerry's interaction with Tiger, the band, and the fans that created the great value of the guitars after Jerry's passing.

It is very clear that the GD did not do what they did in the sole pursuit of money. They did what they did probably because 1) they loved what they did and 2)they really did not know what the hell else to do.

Apparently the boys were great musicians, but not the best business people. I do not know how much money passed through the GD, but over the 30 years it seems like alot. Where they failed business wise is in having a long term succession plan. What was going to happen to GDP in the future, what would happen to the vault over the long term and should we create a foundation or museum for the long term storage and display of the icons of this experience. In retrospect there seems to have been enough money to be able to take care of Doug Irwin and retain the guitars under the control of GDP. I mean really, how much money passed through the Grateful Dead Organization? GDP could not match a $850,000 bid? They could not have went out on a "Save the Tiger Tour?" Do they think that we the deadheads, the most deadicated of all fans anywhere would not have supported a "Save the Tiger tour"?
Even after Jerry's death wouldn't it have been possible to create a foundation to purchase these icons? I mean how many deadheads are there out there? Millions?
tens of millions?
Even now I think that it would be possible to set up a foundation with the long term goal of acquiring Tiger and preserving Tiger for the public good.

Eventually Mr. Irsay will die and Tiger will pass on. Mr Irsay is a very wealthy person and probably has many nice things. He might be able to be persuaded to part with Tiger under the right circumstances someday. A concentrated and sustained effort may eventually yield results.

Imagine just some of the money spent on partying was instead placed into a foundation to acquire and preserve these icons of our culture. It can be done. Never give up
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