"Tigering" out my strat!

Chat about Equipment Info

Postby waldo041 » Fri May 02, 2008 8:52 am

jenkins wrote:Hey waldo can you share the accurate tiger schem with us?

How did you get permission to show that pic of tiger that you took? It seems wierd to me that whoever let you take that pic would say you could post pics of the outside of tiger but not the inside? Thats not cool.
Seems pretty selfish of him to tell you that. There are a lot of people who really could gain a lot of insight if they could see the actual wiring in tiger.
Is he planning on selling Tiger replicas or something with the exact same wiring?

I wonder why there arent any pix of inside tiger form bfore Garcia passed.


technically that is not the shot i was given. that is very poor quality version of what i was given. so i actually may be hitting the gray line posting it. the schem however is all mine! 8)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h36/w ... _WIP1a.jpg

peace,
waldo
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Postby jenkins » Fri May 02, 2008 9:11 am

Thank you Waldo!

looks great
So is that the 100% correct wiring of tiger?
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Postby milobender » Fri May 02, 2008 9:22 am

You know, that is something I puzzled over for quite some time as I was doing the schematic for mine... I didn't feel comfortable with the "sharing" of a capacitor and pot... :-? I didn't have Waldo's schematic, just Dozin's, and this guitar sounds fine the way it is (with Dozin's schem with minor changes), but the next one will have this idea instead...

Thanks Waldo, and I like your UGB alot! :smile:
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Postby waldo041 » Fri May 02, 2008 9:41 am

jenkins wrote:Thank you Waldo!

looks great
So is that the 100% correct wiring of tiger?


yes and described the best i could. i do however have to admit that the actual pot values for the dual ganged are unknown as of right now. that said 250k for the neck is plausible, but dimarzio recommends a 500k. if a 500k was used then i would see no reason why they didn't share the pot. both of jerrys guitars have it with a single coil neck. gary brawer(jim shank) schem shows the sharing like dozin's, but with a humbucker neck.

other then that it is the real deal! wolf is basically the same, but is wire for series/parellel


milobender wrote:Thanks Waldo, and I like your UGB alot! :smile:

sounds good to me also! 8)
you have your axe wired so you could take the buffer out, correct? any chance of an A/B, so the sound could be heard? thanks!


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Postby milobender » Fri May 02, 2008 10:01 am

Yeah, I've got a true bypass for all the active electronics 8) I'll try to get a recording of an A/B this evening. If not, soon :smile: I can tell you though, with it being totally passive, the sound is not as "detailed" if that makes sense. It's muddier sounding, which may be ok for a more distorted type of playing, in a way it's a bit fuller too (probably just the lows being more evident), but for the Dead sound, definately need the ugb. :cool: For me, even if I add some dirt, I like the clean articulation :smile: :smile:
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Postby Jon S. » Fri May 02, 2008 10:22 am

On the subject of the buffer, am I correct that for those of us not especially concerned about replicating the electronics that routs the signal to the effects prior to the return signal hitting the guitar's volume pot, assuming we're running our guitar directly into a well-buffered effects pedals and tend to keep the volume dimed most of the time anyway, it's two nickels or a dime, tonewise, whether the buffer is on-board or on the floor?

Would also like to very strongly second the sentiment that most of Jerry's tone was in his fingers (AND brain as both touch and phrasing/note selection/time signatures were so critical to Jerry's sound). I admit it, as a certified gear nut I like to focus on the gear, too, and of course it's often easier to discuss gear in written post form than technique. But remember, Jerry himself played many different instruments over the years. None of us would ever mistake him for anyone but himself regardless of the guitar and amp. That should give all of us confidence in whatever axes we own!
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Postby waldo041 » Fri May 02, 2008 11:35 am

On the subject of the buffer, am I correct that for those of us not especially concerned about replicating the electronics that routs the signal to the effects prior to the return signal hitting the guitar's volume pot, assuming we're running our guitar directly into a well-buffered effects pedals and tend to keep the volume dimed most of the time anyway, it's two nickels or a dime, tonewise, whether the buffer is on-board or on the floor?


the buffer was put onboard the guitar for cable capacitance issues associated with cables. it was devised so the cleanest signal hits either the pedals when he had the effects loop on, or just straight to the preamp. that said to get the truest signal the closest to the pickups is essential, right after the 5 way in jerry's case. if the buffer were on the ground, that cable would be susceptible to the cable capacitance issue i spoke of. even good cables have tone sucking capacitance. diming the volume to the effects while effective does not portray just what he was able to do with the effects pre volume. effects are voltage sensitive and the slightest volume adjustment can and will effect a stompbox. jerrys effects loop and buffer sent them the hottest signal it could, so that it was predictable everytime. that is more of the reason of why he devised the effects loop. they used buffer preamps almost from the beginning. all of them did!


Would also like to very strongly second the sentiment that most of Jerry's tone was in his fingers (AND brain as both touch and phrasing/note selection/time signatures were so critical to Jerry's sound). I admit it, as a certified gear nut I like to focus on the gear, too, and of course it's often easier to discuss gear in written post form than technique. But remember, Jerry himself played many different instruments over the years. None of us would ever mistake him for anyone but himself regardless of the guitar and amp. That should give all of us confidence in whatever axes we own!


very true statement, but his tone does go thru some changes and i like to think that most are refering to that when talking jerry gear, rather then his sound. jerry was jerry!

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Postby milobender » Sat May 03, 2008 6:23 am

OK here's the A/B Clip to compare Passive pickups with the Unity Gain Buffer engaged.

Both sets of samples begin with an example of the passive pickup only, then using the Unity Gain Buffer. Each group goes through each of the five switch/pup positions. Volume on the guitar is 10, tone controls are at 10. The volume is increased for the UGB samples to compensate for what I believe is referred to as the "Psycho-acoustic effect", which simply is the way "louder" appears to sound "better" to us, especially in comparisons.

Group 1:
Passive only
UGB on, volume same as above
UGB on, volume on amplifier turned up to compensate for the UGB loss

Group 2:
Passive only
UGB on, volume on amplifier turned up to compensate for the UGB loss

http://www.9mileskid.com/eclipseclips.html

enjoy! :D :smile: :D :smile: :D
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Postby jenkins » Sat May 03, 2008 10:39 am

hey waldo, what exactly is an ab modpot? WHat is the difference of this and a regular 500k pot?

Im "tigering" a les paul studio. well almost tigering it. Im adding super 2's, a UGB, an effects loop and an extra single coil in the middle. After reading a quote in the grateful dead gear book by Garcia where he said that usually is on the middle pickup, on single coil setting, I decided that adding the extra single coil is probably wrth it.

I plan on only having 1 tone pot for all 3 pickups. The only reason for this is because I like the convenience of this setup.
Does having an individual cap for each pickup really make a differenc in the tone? Right now my guitar has one cap that is being shared by the two pups. Is putting an individual .02 cap on each pup going to make the highs more defined than if there was only 1 cap?
Is going with only one tone pot going to limit my tonal options?
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Postby waldo041 » Sun May 04, 2008 9:13 pm

jenkins wrote:hey waldo, what exactly is an ab modpot? WHat is the difference of this and a regular 500k pot?

Im "tigering" a les paul studio. well almost tigering it. Im adding super 2's, a UGB, an effects loop and an extra single coil in the middle. After reading a quote in the grateful dead gear book by Garcia where he said that usually is on the middle pickup, on single coil setting, I decided that adding the extra single coil is probably wrth it.

I plan on only having 1 tone pot for all 3 pickups. The only reason for this is because I like the convenience of this setup.
Does having an individual cap for each pickup really make a differenc in the tone? Right now my guitar has one cap that is being shared by the two pups. Is putting an individual .02 cap on each pup going to make the highs more defined than if there was only 1 cap?
Is going with only one tone pot going to limit my tonal options?


an ab modpot is an allen bradley modular potentiometer. it comes in a smaller package and is square. same shaft length and width as the type J/RV4 military spec'd pots jerry liked. and is made of the same material.

an individual cap will be just fine. jerry shared a tone cap and pot in rosebud and bolt for the bridge and neck pickup's. what i think you are missing is that he utilizes a dual ganged pot for two different pickups , a single coil-250k and a humbucker-500k thus needing individual caps.

the tone controls are low pass filters and cut the treble. in fact completely removing the pot and cap will make for a brighter, and slightly louder pickup, because of the load the potentiometer puts on it. so you will be just fine.

on your les paul do you plan on using any inbetween positions like a strats 2 and 4 on the 5 way? if so, what are you going to use for a switch? rotary? also if you go with a single coil in the middle position, the distance from the other pickups in position 2 and 4 will lower output. jerry used the north coil when in single coil and on tiger was out of phase in position 2 and 4. gary brawer flipped and rewired the middle humbucker on rosebud/bolt to keep those positions in phase.

HTH

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Postby tigerstrat » Mon May 05, 2008 7:58 am

I don't know, but I am inclined to believe that Jerry switched the middle pup to series humbucking when using the Mu-Tron.
"There, in huge black letters, was 'The Grateful Dead'. It just... cancelled my mind out."-Garcia
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Postby astroman99 » Mon May 05, 2008 8:35 am

All I an say is wow!!! I am so impressed with the technical knowledge you guys have(you know who you are) and your willingness to share it!
After my house is done being renovated, and my baby grows a little the first thing I wanna do is try some of these mods. I have a great Luthier in town who's poked around my alembic( can't cut into that one, maybe someday though), so I think I'll pick up something cheap, or have him try some of these on my Les Paul Studio.
Thanks again for your willingness to share!!!
ofcourse, I myself understand very little of what has been discussed.

With so many great cheap guitars out there, with these mods they would all sound pretty darn good!
I wish I knew what you guys knew.
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Postby jenkins » Mon May 05, 2008 1:33 pm

THanks a lot for the info waldo. You are definetly helping out big time.

On my les paul Im actually planning on just using a 3 way pickup selector. I will also have an on/off for my middle single coil. ALso I will have an off/humbucker/single coil switch so I can actually turn off my humbuckers and just run the middle single coil, if I want to.

I am planning it like this just because I am used to the 3 way selector and it will be easy to select what pickup I am on. Basically Im just not used to using a 5-way selector. Is there a reason I should consider going to a 5-way?
Am I going to be runnign into phase issues?
You said that when I have the single coil on it could make my 2 and 4 positions quiet. Would adding the 5-way correct this? Is there a way to wire it without the 5 way?
Are you saying that Basically garcia's single coil would change phase depending on what pickup he had selected? am i understanding this correctly?

What do you think the best way to do this would be?

Thanks a lot for answering these questions.
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Postby jenkins » Mon May 05, 2008 6:31 pm

Hey tigerstrat. In a book I was reading the other day Garcia said that when he was using the mutron he was always on the middle pickup, single coil setting. He also says that he couldn't even use the mutron onstage until he came up with the effects loop in his guitar, it was just too inconsistent.
Ill try to find the exact quote.

Grateful dead Gear book def has the quote where Garcia says he is usually playing on the middle pup set to single coil, but I dont think it has the quote where he is talking about using his mutron. Not sure.
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Postby George » Wed May 14, 2008 10:05 am

Hello folks! This is my first post on rukind, but I've been lurking around for years reading and soaking up all the great tips and wealth of knowledge collected here. Thank you! I too am considering modding up my 80's japanese strat squire and have several questions for the resident experts (your help/advice would be greatly appreciated). I love the neck and playability of this guitar, but think I could do much better with new pups and electronics. So following are some questions:

1. If I go the route of Tigering out my strat, will the sds-1 and super twos be too hot for my peavey single 50watt 12" tube amp? My luthier/tech tells me that he thinks it will be very humming and buzzy as well as likely overpower the amp and be distorted. This may become immaterial as I'd like to get a Twin soon, but for now, what do you think?

2. What is the consensus on the optimal UGB/preamp to use? I couldn't tell from MWald's schematic (thank you very much btw!) and there seems to be at least a couple different suggestions throuought this thread.

3. If I were not to do the tiger pup setup, do you have suggestions for 3 new strat style pickups?

4. I currently have the stock tremolo spring loaded tail - would you higly recommend installing a hard tail? If so, what's your suggestion?

5. I'm also considering refretting this guitar as I have some significvant fretware. I currently have narrow gauge vintage fretwire. Any thoughts on various gauges of fretwire? I haven't played enough guitars with various fret ticknesses to really know how this will effect tone and playablitiy. Any thoughts or suggestions here?

Many, many thanks in advance for any and all help, advice, and suggestions! Many of you have already helped me a ton thru the years from learning songs, theory and guitar tech issues - Thanks again!!!
George
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