Ramble on Rose :key and scale/mode

Ramble on Rose :key and scale/mode

Postby chuckpolzin » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:09 pm

could anyone post the key and scale/mode to this song, i believe someone said it was D in a previous post somewhere but there was some disagreement,

I love this song and would love to try and jam to it,

Im sorry if this is an easy question but i know little to nothing about music theory but if given the name of the key and the scale or mode to use i can handle myself because i know the patterns, thanks for any help
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Postby Billbbill » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:39 pm

I mostly think of the chords in this one especially the quick changes. That being said here's the scales I think about while playing. I don't know what key it's in but the notes for D Ionian covers most of the bases. The chromatics I play are dependent on the chord I'm playing over.


Chord---Scale thinking
D - D Ionian

E - E Mixolydian

F#m- F# Phrygian (same notes as D Ionian)

G - G Lydian (same notes as D Ionian)

D - D Ionian

G - G Lydian (same notes as D Ionian)

A - A Mixolydian (same notes as D Ionian)

I'll play some flat thirds here and there for a slightly nasty touch.

While everything other than the E is the notes for D Ionian it's important to think in terms of the chords you are playing over rather than simply thinking "D Ionian" in order to get some real resonance with those particular chords. Lean a bit on the notes that make up the chords for phrasing that occurs over those chords.

That's enough blather from me. Maybe someone who really knows can chime in now.

:lol:
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Postby Mick » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:14 am

I know this is about a year late, but....

My daughter and I have been playing this one quite a bit lately, and struggled at first with the key, but I think we have it figured out now. Trying to determine the key by looking at the chords and finding two majors a full step apart won't work here. The chords used in order of appearance are:

D D# E F#m G G# A Bm and C

This is kind of a mess. We can eliminate C because the Bm and the F#m don't fit, they should be Bdim and F if it were. The D# is only used as a "passing chord", I'm not sure if that is a real term or not, but it is just a stop on our way from D to E and pretty obviously not meant to indicate key in any way. If we drop out the C and the D# chords as just outside/passing chords, we can make a good case for either D or A so I sat down to work it out by ear on my guitar and got through the whole melody in A starting on E to be A mixolydian, which makes a lot of sense and fits in with the common structures of Hunter/Garcia songs.

However, my daughter was having trouble singing it that low, so I re-keyed it to D starting on A to make it D mixolydian (because that also fit well with the rhythm chords) and we were goofing around with that for a while and it sounded good. Then, last month I got DP 20 which has this song on disc 1 and I started playing along with the boys, and lo and behold, they play the thing in D, so I think that is the real answer, it is D mixolydian.

However, just because I had put in the work on the key of A, I started singing the Key of A version during the "Did you say your name was...." and "I'm gonna sing you...." parts as a back-up line to my daughter's lead in D, and although we think it needs a lot of work, we think it sounds pretty cool. The only difference between the two keys is the sharp 7th in A (Gs are sharp) that is natural in D. In those chorus parts, there are no 7ths so the key of A version matches up perfectly with nothing outside the key of D. Singing the verses in A works because the only time the 7s appear, the rhythm chord is an A, so no worries of sounding like a clam there, we just didn't want to overuse the harmony.

I tabbed the melody, Key of D version, in a word file if anyone is interested in it. I could also do the Key of A version with minimal effort if someone wanted that too.

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Postby ronster » Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:47 am

This is the poster song for the CAGED method of playing lead. Just play out of the chord shapes instead of one set scale and it will be all gravy.
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Postby Tennessee Jedi » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:30 am

Hey at the risk of sounding like an idiot -
Can anyone help me get the right "feel" to the intro ?
I dont think its the notes I'm playing as much as how I'm playing 'em.
Like theres a stutter in there that I miss.I like to play it at the 5th fret D.
Its straight up 4/4 right ?
Its driving me nuts that I cant synch up with the band.
Any suggestions?
Thank you :smile:
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Postby deadguise » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:43 am

I have the same problem as TJ with the intro, sometimes it sounds like it's goin into "He's Gone", so I "customized" it...
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Postby Tennessee Jedi » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:54 am

I fudge it,too.
I think that maybe the riff starts on the And before one ?And 1,and two....?Maybe it throws me off.
It seems simple.....
:smile:
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Postby Billbbill » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:51 pm

Tennessee Jedi wrote:Hey at the risk of sounding like an idiot -
Can anyone help me get the right "feel" to the intro ?
I dont think its the notes I'm playing as much as how I'm playing 'em.
Like theres a stutter in there that I miss.I like to play it at the 5th fret D.
Its straight up 4/4 right ?
Its driving me nuts that I cant synch up with the band.
Any suggestions?
Thank you :smile:


Play along with a vid - mine is here

http://community.rukind.org/viewtopic.php?t=3711

Of course you can go to the source. Though I see now greyful is gone from yt as well. Another bunch of vids gone. :(
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Postby Mick » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:09 am

ronster wrote:This is the poster song for the CAGED method of playing lead. Just play out of the chord shapes instead of one set scale and it will be all gravy.


Agree 100%. The overwhelming majority of the melody is on the 5, 1 and 3. Also, the entire melody is sung within one octave as the highest note "....Billy SUNday" is the 4, and the 5 that it starts on is the lowest. I was looking for something relatively easy to work on as I have only been playing for about 1 1/2 years and my daughter is only 11 year old. Friday night, we talked my son (9 years old) into playing the rhythm chords on the acoustic while my daughter and I played as described before. It was the first time that we have gotten all three guitars going simultaneously on the same song! I had changed the strings in my guitar and fixed some intonation problems on my daughters guitar since the last we played it, which I think made a huge improvement to the sound. But, the best part is that we mucked around with it for over an hour Friday night, and then on Saturday night I asked the kids what they wanted to do, and they responded "Can we play Ramble on Rose again?"

No problem kids, let's get the guitars.....

:cool:
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Postby Billbbill » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:52 am

Mick wrote:...so I think that is the real answer, it is D mixolydian.


I don't see this Mick. The C only works for me here as a passing note mostly in chromatic runs or as a flat third reference over the A chord, and then with a bit of a bend. Otherwise, the C# is missing in action over the A and F#m chords unless you're playing D Ionian, modulating to another scale over the A and F#m, or playing it as a passing note.

fwiw I played along with 9/30/76, if not dp 20 right about the same time, and couldn't hear a C note reference in the lead and did hear the C#, even over the D chord.

As always I'm talking the notes for D Ionian as I'm really not sure what the official key is. :-)
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Postby Mick » Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:25 am

Billbill:

I think we are saying the same thing two different ways. The NOTES are definitely key of D. I was struggling thinking it was key of A, but the Gs are natural so that is not correct. The notes for D mixolydian are the same as the notes for D ionian, just the mixolydian starts on A like this:

A B C# D E F# G A


And the Ionian starts on D like this:

D E F# G A B C# D

I am not sure I understand some of the rest of your terminology, but seeing a C natural as a flatted third would point you to the D mixolydian scale when playing in the key of D. In the melody, all of the Cs are sharp, and in fact, I don't believe there are any accidentals in the melody at all (I could be wrong there, I am just going by what I tabbed out by ear). The C I referenced above is from the chord chart where the chord over "hundred verses in ragtime" is listed as C.
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Postby Billbbill » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:50 am

OK, I see Mick - The only issue I see now is what you're calling D mixolydian

A B C# D E F# G A

I'd call A mixolydian as the 7th (G) is flatted. (flatted? is that even a word? :-? ) I believe A mixolydian would be considered the 5th stop on the mode train when talking within the D major scale.

I was refering to the major 3rd of A mixolydian (C#) being flatted to the minor 3rd (C) while playing lead over the A chord for a slightly nasty touch.

Obviously everything would adjust if this isn't actually in the key of D. :roll:

Yea my terminology is a bit rough. Not one of my strengths.
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Postby bucketorain » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:52 am

ronster wrote:This is the poster song for the CAGED method of playing lead. Just play out of the chord shapes instead of one set scale and it will be all gravy.


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Postby Mick » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:22 am

Billbill:

The more we talk, the more I think we are saying the same thing two different ways. EXCEPT, one of us is a little screwed up on the modes/scales terminology, and I seriously wouldn't doubt that it is me. However, to get an A mixolydian scale, I THINK what you would do is play the notes from the A major scale starting on the 5th of the scale, so you would get the following:

E F# G# A B C# D E

I would call what you posted: A B C# D E F# G A
D Mixolydian because it is the D major notes played starting from the 5th.

I don't consider myself and expert here, so if someone who is more versed in these things would like to weigh in and give the real answer, I would appreciate it.
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Postby Billbbill » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:57 am

Mick wrote:.

I don't consider myself and expert here, so if someone who is more versed in these things would like to weigh in and give the real answer, I would appreciate it.


:lol: That was exactly my sentiment at the very end of my first post in this thread.

To those (ronster et al) who profess the caged system here I still think you need to take an individual songs nuance into consideration, no? I think of CAGED as more of a positioning/economy of movement deal. Might you still not have a different note here or there for the same CAGED position depending on the flavor of the song?
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